I feel like Kyle has got to be the least traded asset in fantasy. If you have him, you want full price. If you want him, no way you'll pay that much. He needs another bad season to drop down to actually being exchangeable.
At a guess, because replacing a top-tier TE is really hard. There's just so few you feel good about.
And even though Pitts owners don't feel "good" per se... they know they're at least holding something that has the potential to break the position if/when it comes together.
> At a guess, because replacing a top-tier TE is really hard. There's just so few you feel good about.
i guess the point is, there's a lot of people who dont feel that good about him, and unless he's top 2, he's not separated enough from replacement level to be worth that price. in that sense, the real question is, IS HE even a top tier TE? Because a lot of people are out on that, and a lot of people still believe.
>And even though Pitts owners don't feel "good" per se... they know they're at least holding something that has the potential to break the position
Potential stops outweighing reality after a while though. He could be Mandrews one day...or he could be Engram. And how long it takes him to get there matters.
The problem with the Engram comparisons are that Pitts is just simply a better football player. Yes they’re both very athletic TEs who are basically huge WRs. That’s where the differences end.
Pitts has much better hands, he doesn’t have the dumb drops Engram has and he’s able to make tough catches in traffic that Engram doesn’t do as well at.
Plus Pitts is an adequate enough blocker. Engram doesn’t offer that.
In order for him to be as bad as he was last season for the rest of his career he would have to have not just mediocre but very bad QB play forever which I think is unlikely.
I didnt see pitts have good hands last year at all. Or catch basically anything in traffic. I made the engram comp on purpose. Im not seeing pitts doing the small things that make a great receiver and that leads me to worry that his future is more engram than i thought it would be after that first year.
I also dont care about blocking because i dont get points for that.
Blocking doesn’t get you points but it gets you on the field and softens coverage because coordinators are afraid of wasting two coverage guys on a blocker.
Hes almost never running routes out of traditional looks where hed be blocking. While youre coreect in theory, its not what his situation actually looks like. Hes split out into the slot, or wide much more often, and teams rarely needed two defenders to take him out of a play anyways because hes still sloppy with his routes.
Do I love his production thus far into his career? No, who would as an owner.
Do I UNDERSTAND the reason for his production? Yes, Yes I do. His first year was nothin short of a success. His value was at an all time high. No way am I letting a season like that reflect his real value to me. What /u/WickBusters said is right on the money. Anyone who owns Pitts should have a clear understanding as to why he did so poorly (and a lot of it stems from his QB being the literal worst in passing at the position). Just makes no sense to move on what could be a generational talent for anything less than a haul.
In my leagues you can't get someone to move a meaningful TE unless you're giving one back. There's a whole upper class of TE owner's from the startup and one guy who got Pitts with like the 1.02 when he was a rookie. Kelce for Andrews in a package, Kittle for Waller in a package when they were both great, Hockenson is starting to get there where I'd consider sending Andrews if I got Hock back. It's just too rough out there in the TE landscape to consider yourself a contender and not have one of the <5 guys who actually score semi consistently
I don't think it's weird at all. People do it all the time. Usually one team is looking to get younger at the position while the other is looking to contend now.
If I had Kelce on a rebuilding team, I wouldn't be opposed to going after Pitts at all. Granted I wouldn't do a 1 for 1 trade there but I think a shot on a TE positional advantage for years is a solid gamble.
I paid 55 out of 250 auction dollars for him in a 2 TE TEP league last year.
You’re not getting him for a discount. I want Chase/JJ prices and if you’re not offering that buzz off
i traded Pitts and Chubb for Chase and a 3rd.
this was partially a timing based move, i dont expect to contend next year so chubb is less in my plans, but pitts is still a pretty well priced asset i think. a lot of owners are willing ot discount him a bit, as i was, after seeing london steal the receiver room.
I've bought him in two leagues in the last year. One was JJ/Muth for Pitts/AJB/a 1st that became 1.06. The other was Pitts and a 3rd for Andrews and Goedert. I don't really regret either honestly.
As a Pitts owner, my thought is that it'll take another 2 if not 3 tbh
Hes coming back from a fairly significant injury which, no matter which way you slice it, also limited his development. So he'll get a pass no matte what from me next year. If he's mediocre the year after that, then I'll admit I was wrong and let it be what it is.
I agree with the first part, but the second part not as much. Unless he comes back from the injury and looks like he’s a super significant amount of athleticism that won’t ever come back for some reason, I’ll keep my chips firmly on him until he has a real QB at the very least. Desmond Ridder or Taylor Heinicke not targeting him enough or sailing the balls meant for him isn’t going to change my mind on a 23yo unicorn at the position that is easiest to dominate the field. Rookie year Kyle Pitts’ production, but with medicore touchdown luck as opposed to awful, would be right there in the Kittle tier behind only Kelce and Andrews (in one of his good years, lets see what happens to Lamar). That’s all it takes to have a solid advantage over 70% of the league, and he has so much more time to be truly unlocked and be a true league winner through his actual prime. He’s still an absolute Blue Chipper, and will be throughout this coming season irregardless of the stat sheet.
Rec'd: Pitts, David Montgomery, (and Carson Wantz)
Sent: Swift, gesicki, and Goff
SF, 2pt TE premium
Edit: this was before Monty went to Det and before Wantz was released - i would have done the deal without him anyway
He got traded twice is one of my leagues so far.
Team A: Pitts + 2024 2nd + 2x 2024 3rds
Team B: 2x 2024 1sts (one of them is projected mid the other absolutely will not fall further than 1.02)
Also
Team A: Pitts + Nyheim Hines + Allgeier + 2.07
Team B: Goedert + AJ Dillon + 1.08 + 2025 1st (would shock me if the pick falls out of top 4)
He had one bad year where he got hurt and he had a shit QB. Let’s not forget he had a great rookie season with Matt Ryan as his QB. People are writing this guy off way too soon.
To answer your questions, yes I value him as a top 3 TE. He’s probably 1/2 with Andrews.
Emphasis on the complete horse shit level of play from Mariota this year. I bought Pitts at a decent price this season so I’m a little biased but he had over 1k yards as a ROOKIE last year, and Matt Ryan showed he’s not MVP Matty Ice some remember. Pitts is an amazingly talented player and there’s no reason to panic after one bad year
Also isn’t he 22?? It’s dynasty don’t know why anyone would want to trade away an elite player age 22 when the rest of the options at his position are a garbage roulette wheel with a few exceptions
Haha, not as bad as it sounds. The leagues where I had Lamar I went after Andrews. Usually Hock or Kittle plus some picks did the job.
Lamar isn't easy to get in SF. Need a good QB+player/picks
In all seriousness, not many TEs burst onto the scene. It usually takes them a few years to get acclimated and adjusted to the NFL. After his rookie year, we’ve seen what he can be. Whether he can sustain that long term is another question. Definitely needs the right QB and coach. But I don’t think it was an outlier and I don’t see him being a bust. He should be a solid NFL and fantasy TE with top 3 potential.
Wrote an article on him a few weeks back. In short, I think he’s a great player that’s gotten unlucky with both situation and minor injuries. This year’s play-calling was an outlier and a fresh year-2 ridder is gonna be a lot better. Mariota was also historically horrible throwing to Pitts specifically
Yeah the unwarranted commitment to the run in some games was awful. Weren’t there games where they attempted 10 or so passes? No TE or WR can be successful in that kind of situation. Really hard to judge Pitts from that.
Yeah I just think this past year was such an outlier and bridge year towards finding some qb consistency. Even if they don't go qb in the first round, I still expect the offense to flow much better through London and Pitts.
How was this years play calling an outlier? Youre making way too many excuses. If you have to make a mountain of excuses that says a lot.
The falcons still have the same OC as last year, they still have Arthur Smith who wants to run it 50 times a year.
They signed Jonnu smith and Mack Hollins, 2 huge guys who are good blockers as receivers. This means the falcons are doubling down on running it 50 times a game.
This years play calling was not an outlier. Next years play calling will be even more run heavy with a rookie and the moves made.
Not to mention, London will be the number 1 there. He dominated targets last year. Pitts will never be the top receiver on this offense dedicated to the run with a bad QB.
As I said in the article, I believe last year was a transition year that failed. The falcons have long been a pass-heavy team and now have drafted receivers in the first round back-to-back years. The Mack Hollins and Jonu Smith moves happened after I released the article, but u believe Jonu smith helps Pitts a lot. I think we’ll see a lot less of Pitts run blocking and more snaps as a receiver. I also mentioned in the article how although London had a very high targets per route run, Pitts was also incredibly high. That’s because these receivers are the only good ones on the entire team. No wonder a team will cling to the run when their best receiving options outside of London and Pitts are named zaccheus and byrd. Once Pitts was injured they had a poor qb throwing to poor receivers. Of course they ran the hall a lot. While the draft will tell us more abt the future of this offense, I think as of right now, Pitts is a buy
Of course getting a more pass-heavy qb helps, but I just think in general last year was a wave the white flag kind of year. Pitts getting injured was the cherry on top. Mariota is gone and I think that was the root of the problems for Pitts. I think they’ll invest more in receivers and pass-blocking lineman to favor the pass. Allgeier is good but his 1000yd season was a direct result of the passing game simply not working
When has Arthur Smith ever been pass heavy? As the OC in TEN, Henry had 300-350 carries. Just because the falcons passed a lot when they had Ryan and Julio doesnt mean they’ll do it now. That’s a ridiculous assumption based in logo scouting.
Go get him, Jonnu Smith is going to be blocking while they let Pitts play out wide or in the slot. Short of Ridder just doing like Mariota and not targeting him, he will probably take off this year.
I still believe in him but I cannot get behind paying 3+ firsts for a TE without a TE1 overall season.
I’ll buy Kelce, Andrews, Kittle, Hock, and Goedert at cost before Pitts.
Yeah for 2023 I’d even look at Njoku and Engram before Pitts if I’m competing.
The price people still want for Pitts is ridiculous. Last offseason it was just about Chase/JJ/JT prices. Now it’s still low end WR1 prices. Why not just buy a Hock and a WR2 if you need a TE with that cost?
And my bet is Hock ends up the better dynasty asset anyways. Hock is the arb at TE if you’re looking for top-tier talent crossed with youth and opportunity.
It's not recency bias; it's literally half his career. You can't just say "oh, the good half of his career is the only part that counts!"
And I'm saying this as someone who recently bought Pitts.
Its definitely recency bias.
Even in his last bad year Pitts was targeted at the same rate in his offense as Stefon Diggs was in Buffalo- top 10 in the NFL overall - not his fault his offense threw the ball at a paltry rate rarely seen in the last decade
I think you could make the argument that there was nothing inherently bad that stood out in his play that would make you think he isn’t an elite athlete who plays a historically shallow position.
I’ll put it this way. It would take a massive haul for me to move him, and that’s with the down year. Top 2-3 te in dynasty and he hasn’t come close to his ceiling
2 early - mid 1s this year or 2 future 1s + another asset. I think it makes the most sense for owners to tier down. For example, a hock + mid 23 1 for pitts
No offense and I mean this with all due respect and as a Gator fan. I'd laugh my way out of that chat room quick hearing that offer. Pitts is OJ Howard 2.0. He was doomed once taken by the Falcons and have stayed by that statement since he was drafted. He'll be luck to ever hit TE10 in his career. Dude wasn't even impressive at Florida. Barely broke 40ish receptions each year he was playing
Wasn’t impressive at Florida? Dude led the team in receptions in a stacked receiving corps with 3 other current nfl receivers in Toney, swain and Jefferson. Had 12 tds and 770 yards in 8 games in a Covid shortened season the following year. Some gator fan you are
It’s easy to look at stats when I watched every game lol I suggest you watch condensed versions of every game. I bet you think Anthony Richardson will be an elite QB as well huh? Lmao
I grew up a Florida fan and watched every game. Trask was the man. Had us within 1 score of beating bama in the sec championship. Pitts was a stud. You’re delusional
Trask was phenomenal but doesn’t prove Pitts was elite. Florida wasn’t even that good overall. We got carried by Trask that’s it. Defense sucked ass and it showed against LSU👟 down here from there and got exposed in the bowl game. Georgia’s TE Brock Bowers is miles ahead of what Pitts could ever be
You told me to watch Florida games, I told you what happened that season. Bowers is fantastic, not gonna argue that. But saying pitts wasn’t good in college is just ignorant.
Btw get ready for a shit season this year. Graham mertz is one of the worst qbs in division I
We’re a Baseball school not a football school I’ve accepted this lol
Will not buy into the hype of Pitts. He’s a slot WR playing TE in the NFL which will doom him.
Being a Gator fan who saw him live for 3 years is what I’m smoking. If you want keep a player based on “potential” and ask for astronomical prices because of “potential” go right ahead but gtfo with that nonsense
Pitts had 1k yards as a rookie. Ppr TE 6 and only had 1 td. That’s his floor when he’s healthy. He’s due for positive td regression as well. OJ Howard never beat more than 600 yards in a szn. Not even comparable. Could you elaborate as to why you think he’s OJ Howard ? Based on your previous comment it seems you’re just salty the falcons took him and you gotta play him 2x a year, so you’re actively rooting against him
OJ Howard and Pitts had comparable if not identical careers at college. Ppl praised Howard just like Pitts and look what happened. Pop that remind me if you’re so confident or I’ll do it for you. It’s clear you don’t watch college football lol
RemindMe! 3 years
Identical stats in college ? In 2 years, pitts had 97 catches for 1419 yards and 17 tds compared to Howard’s 114 catches for 1726 yards and 7 tds in 4 years.
Idk why you’re getting so hostile lol, we can disagree about Pitts, but just saying he’s OJ Howard due to hype both players got is crazy. Pitts has already far surpassed anything Howard has done in the NFL. They don’t play in college anymore.
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Love Drizzy. Him and pitts gonna erupt if they can get somewhat competent qb play this year. Not worried about either of them long term.
Ridder has to be better than Mariota was last year. If he’s somewhat better, and the falcons decide to utilize their top 10 draft picks, both London and pitts can clear 1000 yards easy
The addition on Jonnu Smith helps him more than it hurts. I can see Pitts being split out more and being used more as a WR. Problem was, he’s such a mismatch defenses were often able to triple team him with impunity, basically negating him. I imagine he’ll still see a lot of double teams and open up the field for other players. QB is absolutely an issue for them as Ridder limits what they can do. If im investing in ATL im buying in at a lower cost with Allgier or if u wanna spend big buy London.
I still think he is a top 3 TE in terms of dynasty because the TE top end is just so shallow. Kelce and Andrews are 1/2, Hock can be argued at 3 over Pitts but I think Pitts is the better talent.
I can still see people arguing he could be worth a 1st+ still, but IMO I am already aiming for the new crops of TE that are coming in this year in hopes they get into better positions than pitts.
If he pops you won’t be able to buy him for today’s prices. Probably won’t be able to buy him at all. The whole reason is Pitts stans are holding tight and asking a ton and thus not really moving him is because we believe he will be a league winning TE for the next 5-7-10 years, like we’ve seen with Kelce
I’d sell, Atlanta is looking to run the ball and until there’s a major QB upgrade there’s no way that both London and Pitts can be supported for fantasy relevance.
Wouldn’t say that with so much certainty.
When Matt Ryan was there they threw plenty. Arthur Smith was playing to his personnel in 2022, which was limited at QB
I traded him for Hockenson and the 2.08. The talent is there, but IMO as long as he’s in Atlanta he’s going to be underutilized. I feel like by the time he lands in a good situation his value will have dropped pretty significantly from where it is now.
As a Browns fan, let me tell you that the grass is not always greener. It can always be worse. Ask Brandon Weeden / Brady Quinn / Johnny Manziel / a dozen others.
The highest I’m willing to offer is the 1.06 in superflex I loved pitts coming out but unless he’s actually targeted more then 4 times a game then he can’t react that potential he has. Atlanta just isn’t the spot for him but the talent for sure is there for him to reach those heights we all believe he has
I’d be comfortable buying there but only because I’m in a situation that I can do that. Not many teams are a TE away from being a top tier team in their league. But it won’t be my first offer. I’d probably start by offering a pick in the 1.09 -1.12 range and a player like Alec pierce or Donavan peoples jones.
\*Everyone\* involved with him is heavily invested, maybe over-invested, so if he fails \*everyone\* involved will lose. He's not a player where you should even be thinking "I don't want to be left holding the bag" because we're like a million miles away from really considering that. If you've already sunk too much in him, then, well, that's now a sunk cost.
The reality is whatever you've sunk in him \*might not\* be a too much, regardless of what it is (disclaimer: I chose him over Chase at #2 in the rookie draft that year, so I am included here), but it will require patience. There is absolutely no way anyone should be looking to offload him right now. The ceiling is just too high, and the production of the rookie year already put in place a super solid floor. Let's hope last year was an anomaly due to bad QB play, unexpected team positioning to win the division, and expanded TE development. There are reasons to think it will be an anomaly, so again, no reason in the world to be trying to offload him.
He could underperform and get injured and is still valued as an elite dynasty tight end. Could you imagine what will happen to his value if he has a good year with touchdowns?
Cut him, and tell of your friends and relatives it's time to let him go, then, through a long enough period of word of mouth I'll be able to add him once my league mate inevitably does the same.
Jonnu signing means he’ll be blocking while Pitts is running routes. More routes + a QB who doesn’t miss him over half the time will lead to a huge jump in his production.
When I watch Falcons games I see a stud TE that is being under utilized coupled with poor QB play. Sure, there's room to grow, but he's clearly very skilled. I wouldn't be trying to move off of him anytime soon.
He is still elite and has a lot of value but not as much as he did in his rookie season with Ryan. It’s hard to say who will be his QB going forward as Ridder only played a few games to judge him. If he is stuck with another bad QB like Mariota, his potential can’t win games for you. If Ridder grows and feeds him, then he could be a top 3 lock for a while.
To be fair...Engrams trajectory looks great right now. He had a couple down years, but he's been a TE1 in half of his seasons and the Giants never used him the right way. Now he's in a place that uses him the right way and he has a very bright future.
Realized my team last year was not enough for the championship and made a pivot pretty early on in the season.
Sent: Mandrews, Moore, Pacheco
Received: Pitts, Sutton, Christian Kirk
If you have him I don't see how you could trade him away rn for fair value as the owner probably took him with an early pick and sees his ceiling as Gronk + Shannon Sharpe.
Im not making any trades for him either. QB uncertainty, coach uncertainty, bad system for him to thrive. All red flags.
People forget that he had a historic rookie TE season, and it was still considered to be a bust given his expectations. He’s had Matt Ryan and Marcus Mariota throwing him the ball. Two of the worst QBs over the past two years in terms of DOT and accuracy. We saw what London was able to do with a less than stellar Ridder at QB last year, and Pitts is arguably more imposing and possibly more athletic than London. Even with the 25th best QB in the league next year, he should be able to have a better season than his rookie year. If he gets a top 15 QB, then he has the potential of being a top 3 TE even if London finishes top 18 WR.
I want no part of Pitts moving forward until we find out where he is going on his next contract. His lack of separation #s are alarming and explains why he struggles with TDs when in tighter spaces so he needs an accurate QB due to the tighter throwing windows. I think year 1 was the anomoly as he was force fed due to no other options with a much more accurate pocket QB which inflated his receiving #s. Also I see Demond Ridder as a lateral move at QB over an upgrade. Bijan and Drake may help take some of the coverage off of Pitts especially around the goal-line, but also will probably take target share/yardage as well.
I am so sick of these questions about Pitts. We all know he's a phenomenal talent but is going to under perform or outright suck until Atlanta fixes their QB problem. Until that changes, asking every other day is pointless. Stop asking.
The same people who made Pitts a top 5 asset on KTC at one point are the same ones who don’t understand how the TE position works and are left holding a bag.
His perceived ceiling was always because of his measurable’s and athleticism. Neither of which actually define great TEs. It’s a position that needs to understand coverages and defenses better than the other skill positions. It’s about finding gaps in coverage and exploiting them, and turning one loose when the opportunity arises.
Look at the top TEs in the past decade. Only Vernon Davis was considered a “freak,” while slow ass guys like Witten and Kelce were also dominant.
Don’t sell for pennies on the dollar, but understand the guy is not this generational TE simply bc he’s 6’6 and ran a 4.4.
I largely agree with this take to the extent that I think what's being said is that a tight end's athleticism can provide a floor for his production but that truly elite players know how to dissect coverages and get open, which is a skill that players with sub-par athleticism can use to be quire effective pass-catchers. See eg, Zach Ertz.
After he was placed on IR this past season, my team tanked and I traded Pitts for what turned out to be the 2023 Pick 1.01. Its still too early to say if this trade worked out for my team or not. Its probably a wash, at least now.
I tried to use Witten in my comment to emphasize the point I was attempting to make. Freak athleticism is not a defining trait of a lot of elite TEs (Gonzo, Kelce, Ertz, etc.) People pegged Pitts as someone who would transform and dominate the position simply bc he’s 6’6 and ran a 4.4.
FWIW, I would take Bijan over Pitts in your trade but agree that’ll take a few seasons to know who won.
Look at Kittles measurables.
Look at Gronks.
Athletic ability absolutely matters for TEs.
Plus pitts had a 1000 yard rookie season with a good film year sophomore season.
I feel like Kyle has got to be the least traded asset in fantasy. If you have him, you want full price. If you want him, no way you'll pay that much. He needs another bad season to drop down to actually being exchangeable.
Just bought him for Olave straight up in a TEP league. Hopefully bought low 🤞
Bought him for Gisecki and a 1st/3rd for me. Hoping for the best
Gross
1.12, 3.12, and Gisecki for Pitts is "gross" Interesting.
I think he means the other side
I hope so lol
If you own him there is just no point in selling unless you’re getting kelce or andrews
Offered Andrew’s and got turned down. Probably did me a favor
i dont understand why people imagine position for position trades. what if they were getting legit WR or RB value back?
At a guess, because replacing a top-tier TE is really hard. There's just so few you feel good about. And even though Pitts owners don't feel "good" per se... they know they're at least holding something that has the potential to break the position if/when it comes together.
> At a guess, because replacing a top-tier TE is really hard. There's just so few you feel good about. i guess the point is, there's a lot of people who dont feel that good about him, and unless he's top 2, he's not separated enough from replacement level to be worth that price. in that sense, the real question is, IS HE even a top tier TE? Because a lot of people are out on that, and a lot of people still believe. >And even though Pitts owners don't feel "good" per se... they know they're at least holding something that has the potential to break the position Potential stops outweighing reality after a while though. He could be Mandrews one day...or he could be Engram. And how long it takes him to get there matters.
The problem with the Engram comparisons are that Pitts is just simply a better football player. Yes they’re both very athletic TEs who are basically huge WRs. That’s where the differences end. Pitts has much better hands, he doesn’t have the dumb drops Engram has and he’s able to make tough catches in traffic that Engram doesn’t do as well at. Plus Pitts is an adequate enough blocker. Engram doesn’t offer that. In order for him to be as bad as he was last season for the rest of his career he would have to have not just mediocre but very bad QB play forever which I think is unlikely.
I didnt see pitts have good hands last year at all. Or catch basically anything in traffic. I made the engram comp on purpose. Im not seeing pitts doing the small things that make a great receiver and that leads me to worry that his future is more engram than i thought it would be after that first year. I also dont care about blocking because i dont get points for that.
Blocking doesn’t get you points but it gets you on the field and softens coverage because coordinators are afraid of wasting two coverage guys on a blocker.
Hes almost never running routes out of traditional looks where hed be blocking. While youre coreect in theory, its not what his situation actually looks like. Hes split out into the slot, or wide much more often, and teams rarely needed two defenders to take him out of a play anyways because hes still sloppy with his routes.
Do I love his production thus far into his career? No, who would as an owner. Do I UNDERSTAND the reason for his production? Yes, Yes I do. His first year was nothin short of a success. His value was at an all time high. No way am I letting a season like that reflect his real value to me. What /u/WickBusters said is right on the money. Anyone who owns Pitts should have a clear understanding as to why he did so poorly (and a lot of it stems from his QB being the literal worst in passing at the position). Just makes no sense to move on what could be a generational talent for anything less than a haul.
The palpable potential of WR production at TE is worth too much
i mean, maybe, but trading position for position is weird and i've never once seen a trade like that happen
In my leagues you can't get someone to move a meaningful TE unless you're giving one back. There's a whole upper class of TE owner's from the startup and one guy who got Pitts with like the 1.02 when he was a rookie. Kelce for Andrews in a package, Kittle for Waller in a package when they were both great, Hockenson is starting to get there where I'd consider sending Andrews if I got Hock back. It's just too rough out there in the TE landscape to consider yourself a contender and not have one of the <5 guys who actually score semi consistently
I don't think it's weird at all. People do it all the time. Usually one team is looking to get younger at the position while the other is looking to contend now. If I had Kelce on a rebuilding team, I wouldn't be opposed to going after Pitts at all. Granted I wouldn't do a 1 for 1 trade there but I think a shot on a TE positional advantage for years is a solid gamble.
Or future picks..
traded him for andrews and a 24 second early last season, couldn’t turn it down
Can’t help but notice you actually like scoring fantasy points.
If youre getting hock plus a first I think thats a great trade
Last year I finally offloaded him for Freiermuth and a mid-1st. I feel pretty good about that.
I can’t even get the Pitts owner to take my Muth and 2 1sts…
I paid 55 out of 250 auction dollars for him in a 2 TE TEP league last year. You’re not getting him for a discount. I want Chase/JJ prices and if you’re not offering that buzz off
I mean in your league setup, he's probably worth that.
Tell that to my league mates! So many vultures offering one or two firsts
i traded Pitts and Chubb for Chase and a 3rd. this was partially a timing based move, i dont expect to contend next year so chubb is less in my plans, but pitts is still a pretty well priced asset i think. a lot of owners are willing ot discount him a bit, as i was, after seeing london steal the receiver room.
I bought pitts for Jamo and 3.04 in a .5 TEP, some people definitely got spooked
That’s absurd. Congratulations though
I've bought him in two leagues in the last year. One was JJ/Muth for Pitts/AJB/a 1st that became 1.06. The other was Pitts and a 3rd for Andrews and Goedert. I don't really regret either honestly.
As a Pitts owner, my thought is that it'll take another 2 if not 3 tbh Hes coming back from a fairly significant injury which, no matter which way you slice it, also limited his development. So he'll get a pass no matte what from me next year. If he's mediocre the year after that, then I'll admit I was wrong and let it be what it is.
I agree with the first part, but the second part not as much. Unless he comes back from the injury and looks like he’s a super significant amount of athleticism that won’t ever come back for some reason, I’ll keep my chips firmly on him until he has a real QB at the very least. Desmond Ridder or Taylor Heinicke not targeting him enough or sailing the balls meant for him isn’t going to change my mind on a 23yo unicorn at the position that is easiest to dominate the field. Rookie year Kyle Pitts’ production, but with medicore touchdown luck as opposed to awful, would be right there in the Kittle tier behind only Kelce and Andrews (in one of his good years, lets see what happens to Lamar). That’s all it takes to have a solid advantage over 70% of the league, and he has so much more time to be truly unlocked and be a true league winner through his actual prime. He’s still an absolute Blue Chipper, and will be throughout this coming season irregardless of the stat sheet.
Traded for him. Chig/24FRP/25SRP
I have him and no way I'd trade him. Like you said would need another rough year before I'd even consider moving him.
I sold him pittman and a future 1st before the start of last season for JJetta, feel better about the move every single day lol
Rec'd: Pitts, David Montgomery, (and Carson Wantz) Sent: Swift, gesicki, and Goff SF, 2pt TE premium Edit: this was before Monty went to Det and before Wantz was released - i would have done the deal without him anyway
Wantz
He got traded twice is one of my leagues so far. Team A: Pitts + 2024 2nd + 2x 2024 3rds Team B: 2x 2024 1sts (one of them is projected mid the other absolutely will not fall further than 1.02) Also Team A: Pitts + Nyheim Hines + Allgeier + 2.07 Team B: Goedert + AJ Dillon + 1.08 + 2025 1st (would shock me if the pick falls out of top 4)
I traded Micheal Pittman for him last year around week 4.
This is called the sunk cost fallacy. He's never going to be as valuable as he was last summer.
He had one bad year where he got hurt and he had a shit QB. Let’s not forget he had a great rookie season with Matt Ryan as his QB. People are writing this guy off way too soon. To answer your questions, yes I value him as a top 3 TE. He’s probably 1/2 with Andrews.
Emphasis on the complete horse shit level of play from Mariota this year. I bought Pitts at a decent price this season so I’m a little biased but he had over 1k yards as a ROOKIE last year, and Matt Ryan showed he’s not MVP Matty Ice some remember. Pitts is an amazingly talented player and there’s no reason to panic after one bad year Also isn’t he 22?? It’s dynasty don’t know why anyone would want to trade away an elite player age 22 when the rest of the options at his position are a garbage roulette wheel with a few exceptions
I’d say somewhere between complete bust and generational talent. Should be somewhere in there.
If Lamar goes to Falcons maybe he'll be good, but maybe he won't. 50/50
As a Lamar and Pitts owner, I love this.
As someone who paid a king's ransom to get the Lamar/Andrews stack, I'd still be happy to see him leave the Baltimore turdburglars
Did you have to buy Lamar or Andrews? If Lamar, what did you pay for him?
Haha, not as bad as it sounds. The leagues where I had Lamar I went after Andrews. Usually Hock or Kittle plus some picks did the job. Lamar isn't easy to get in SF. Need a good QB+player/picks
I paid Barkley, Jacobs and the 1.09 for Lamar in SF.
Lol yes those are the range of outcomes…
In all seriousness, not many TEs burst onto the scene. It usually takes them a few years to get acclimated and adjusted to the NFL. After his rookie year, we’ve seen what he can be. Whether he can sustain that long term is another question. Definitely needs the right QB and coach. But I don’t think it was an outlier and I don’t see him being a bust. He should be a solid NFL and fantasy TE with top 3 potential.
This is why I hoarding Trey McBride and Noah gray
Two of my favorites too
Exactly. Maybe the commanders win the sb, maybe they don't. 50/50 shot
Wrote an article on him a few weeks back. In short, I think he’s a great player that’s gotten unlucky with both situation and minor injuries. This year’s play-calling was an outlier and a fresh year-2 ridder is gonna be a lot better. Mariota was also historically horrible throwing to Pitts specifically
Here’s the article if anyone’s interested [Dynasty Breakdown: Kyle Pitts](https://mfootballanalytics.com/2023/03/02/dynasty-breakdown-kyle-pitts/)
Great read mate
Thx!
Yeah the unwarranted commitment to the run in some games was awful. Weren’t there games where they attempted 10 or so passes? No TE or WR can be successful in that kind of situation. Really hard to judge Pitts from that.
Yeah I just think this past year was such an outlier and bridge year towards finding some qb consistency. Even if they don't go qb in the first round, I still expect the offense to flow much better through London and Pitts.
How was this years play calling an outlier? Youre making way too many excuses. If you have to make a mountain of excuses that says a lot. The falcons still have the same OC as last year, they still have Arthur Smith who wants to run it 50 times a year. They signed Jonnu smith and Mack Hollins, 2 huge guys who are good blockers as receivers. This means the falcons are doubling down on running it 50 times a game. This years play calling was not an outlier. Next years play calling will be even more run heavy with a rookie and the moves made. Not to mention, London will be the number 1 there. He dominated targets last year. Pitts will never be the top receiver on this offense dedicated to the run with a bad QB.
As I said in the article, I believe last year was a transition year that failed. The falcons have long been a pass-heavy team and now have drafted receivers in the first round back-to-back years. The Mack Hollins and Jonu Smith moves happened after I released the article, but u believe Jonu smith helps Pitts a lot. I think we’ll see a lot less of Pitts run blocking and more snaps as a receiver. I also mentioned in the article how although London had a very high targets per route run, Pitts was also incredibly high. That’s because these receivers are the only good ones on the entire team. No wonder a team will cling to the run when their best receiving options outside of London and Pitts are named zaccheus and byrd. Once Pitts was injured they had a poor qb throwing to poor receivers. Of course they ran the hall a lot. While the draft will tell us more abt the future of this offense, I think as of right now, Pitts is a buy
Do you think Arthur Smith decides to pass more if he gets a better QB, or that’s just his style?
Of course getting a more pass-heavy qb helps, but I just think in general last year was a wave the white flag kind of year. Pitts getting injured was the cherry on top. Mariota is gone and I think that was the root of the problems for Pitts. I think they’ll invest more in receivers and pass-blocking lineman to favor the pass. Allgeier is good but his 1000yd season was a direct result of the passing game simply not working
When has Arthur Smith ever been pass heavy? As the OC in TEN, Henry had 300-350 carries. Just because the falcons passed a lot when they had Ryan and Julio doesnt mean they’ll do it now. That’s a ridiculous assumption based in logo scouting.
Lol no one's reading some random redditora articles. Especially if they are pushing Pitts.
Go get him, Jonnu Smith is going to be blocking while they let Pitts play out wide or in the slot. Short of Ridder just doing like Mariota and not targeting him, he will probably take off this year.
Mariota did target him though lol, Pitts would get like 8 targets but only 2 would be remotely catchable
His upside is league winning TE for the next 5-7-10 years and I’d rather die on this hill than trade him before he tears up the league next year
📈🌕
I still believe in him but I cannot get behind paying 3+ firsts for a TE without a TE1 overall season. I’ll buy Kelce, Andrews, Kittle, Hock, and Goedert at cost before Pitts.
Yeah for 2023 I’d even look at Njoku and Engram before Pitts if I’m competing. The price people still want for Pitts is ridiculous. Last offseason it was just about Chase/JJ/JT prices. Now it’s still low end WR1 prices. Why not just buy a Hock and a WR2 if you need a TE with that cost?
And my bet is Hock ends up the better dynasty asset anyways. Hock is the arb at TE if you’re looking for top-tier talent crossed with youth and opportunity.
People aren’t still paying that much tho are they? I traded Davante Adams straight up for him and felt that was pretty fair
That’s just what the pitts owners in my leagues are asking for
A top 5 TE for the next 8 years with one fluke season..the 2022 year with Marcus Mariota as his QB.
Right? Got to love the intense recency bias that this sub thrives off of!!!
I think people are more concerned about ground and pound it arthur smith, who's still there, than mariota
Pitts had a good rookie year with Arthur Smith as his coach.
I know Arthur historically likes to run the ball, but I would have been ground and pound too if Mariota was my QB
Exactly, what do you want him to do lol
It's not recency bias; it's literally half his career. You can't just say "oh, the good half of his career is the only part that counts!" And I'm saying this as someone who recently bought Pitts.
Its definitely recency bias. Even in his last bad year Pitts was targeted at the same rate in his offense as Stefon Diggs was in Buffalo- top 10 in the NFL overall - not his fault his offense threw the ball at a paltry rate rarely seen in the last decade
He missed 7 games this year so technically not
You sure
You need to actually make the argument that he’s a top 5 TE for the next 8 years, you can’t just assert it.
I think you could make the argument that there was nothing inherently bad that stood out in his play that would make you think he isn’t an elite athlete who plays a historically shallow position.
1000 yard rookie season. Top 5 pick. Good film. Still only 22. Do we need to say more?
we know exactly as much as when the season ended 3 months ago
You buying or selling?
Holding if you have him (won’t get price you want) and not buying if you don’t have him. (Probably will be a heavy purchase)
Just bought him from a contender for nick chubb. Felt pretty good about it as a rebuilding team
Absolute steal if it’s a one for one
I’ll put it this way. It would take a massive haul for me to move him, and that’s with the down year. Top 2-3 te in dynasty and he hasn’t come close to his ceiling
What price would you look for to part with him?
2 early - mid 1s this year or 2 future 1s + another asset. I think it makes the most sense for owners to tier down. For example, a hock + mid 23 1 for pitts
Makes sense for sure, given his upside. Curious how you would feel about something like Terry + Pat F + 1.10 for Pitts (offer I sent my league mate)
I would consider it for sure. Def not a downright decline. Depending on roster construction, I may take it. In a vacuum, I’m leaning decline though
No offense and I mean this with all due respect and as a Gator fan. I'd laugh my way out of that chat room quick hearing that offer. Pitts is OJ Howard 2.0. He was doomed once taken by the Falcons and have stayed by that statement since he was drafted. He'll be luck to ever hit TE10 in his career. Dude wasn't even impressive at Florida. Barely broke 40ish receptions each year he was playing
Wasn’t impressive at Florida? Dude led the team in receptions in a stacked receiving corps with 3 other current nfl receivers in Toney, swain and Jefferson. Had 12 tds and 770 yards in 8 games in a Covid shortened season the following year. Some gator fan you are
It’s easy to look at stats when I watched every game lol I suggest you watch condensed versions of every game. I bet you think Anthony Richardson will be an elite QB as well huh? Lmao
I grew up a Florida fan and watched every game. Trask was the man. Had us within 1 score of beating bama in the sec championship. Pitts was a stud. You’re delusional
Trask was phenomenal but doesn’t prove Pitts was elite. Florida wasn’t even that good overall. We got carried by Trask that’s it. Defense sucked ass and it showed against LSU👟 down here from there and got exposed in the bowl game. Georgia’s TE Brock Bowers is miles ahead of what Pitts could ever be
You told me to watch Florida games, I told you what happened that season. Bowers is fantastic, not gonna argue that. But saying pitts wasn’t good in college is just ignorant. Btw get ready for a shit season this year. Graham mertz is one of the worst qbs in division I
We’re a Baseball school not a football school I’ve accepted this lol Will not buy into the hype of Pitts. He’s a slot WR playing TE in the NFL which will doom him.
Lucky to beat TE10 again? Te 9 was taysom hill and te 10 was Dalton schultz, but pitts isn’t better than them? I want whatever you’re smoking bro.
Being a Gator fan who saw him live for 3 years is what I’m smoking. If you want keep a player based on “potential” and ask for astronomical prices because of “potential” go right ahead but gtfo with that nonsense
Pitts had 1k yards as a rookie. Ppr TE 6 and only had 1 td. That’s his floor when he’s healthy. He’s due for positive td regression as well. OJ Howard never beat more than 600 yards in a szn. Not even comparable. Could you elaborate as to why you think he’s OJ Howard ? Based on your previous comment it seems you’re just salty the falcons took him and you gotta play him 2x a year, so you’re actively rooting against him
OJ Howard and Pitts had comparable if not identical careers at college. Ppl praised Howard just like Pitts and look what happened. Pop that remind me if you’re so confident or I’ll do it for you. It’s clear you don’t watch college football lol RemindMe! 3 years
Identical stats in college ? In 2 years, pitts had 97 catches for 1419 yards and 17 tds compared to Howard’s 114 catches for 1726 yards and 7 tds in 4 years. Idk why you’re getting so hostile lol, we can disagree about Pitts, but just saying he’s OJ Howard due to hype both players got is crazy. Pitts has already far surpassed anything Howard has done in the NFL. They don’t play in college anymore.
You’ll see as his career has panned out as a bust so far. Don’t be a bag holder because of “potential”
And their rookie years could not have been more different.
Both were praised as generational TE’s coming out of college which neither did amazing things in college to begin with.
That’s hate
Can’t be hate I’m a Gator fan lol
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Lol I see you’re a falcons fan. Does the team worry you about capping his ceiling? Also, curious how you feel about “Drizzy London”
Love Drizzy. Him and pitts gonna erupt if they can get somewhat competent qb play this year. Not worried about either of them long term. Ridder has to be better than Mariota was last year. If he’s somewhat better, and the falcons decide to utilize their top 10 draft picks, both London and pitts can clear 1000 yards easy
22 years old. 1000 yard rookie season. Top 5 NFL pick. Incredibly athletic. Great NFL film. If anyone is selling for less than 3 firsts, I’m buying
If I had him I’d sell for 2 1sts and a 2nd easily.
Same
Last season, Pitts for Garett Wilson (not my trade)
The addition on Jonnu Smith helps him more than it hurts. I can see Pitts being split out more and being used more as a WR. Problem was, he’s such a mismatch defenses were often able to triple team him with impunity, basically negating him. I imagine he’ll still see a lot of double teams and open up the field for other players. QB is absolutely an issue for them as Ridder limits what they can do. If im investing in ATL im buying in at a lower cost with Allgier or if u wanna spend big buy London.
I somehow moved him for 1.02 right after his injury
1QB or SF?
1QB
I think I might prefer Pitts. Definitely over Gibbs, JSN would be a hard decision.
Adding yet another TE makes me less confident. I'll be taking JSN for my WR needy ass
Low key price check?
I still think he is a top 3 TE in terms of dynasty because the TE top end is just so shallow. Kelce and Andrews are 1/2, Hock can be argued at 3 over Pitts but I think Pitts is the better talent. I can still see people arguing he could be worth a 1st+ still, but IMO I am already aiming for the new crops of TE that are coming in this year in hopes they get into better positions than pitts.
I’d buy at a discount but not paying full price. That just means if he pops, I’ll miss out but I can go buy another serviceable TE for less.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If he pops then you'll just pay what you would pay now but with the knowledge that he's actually good now.
If he pops you won’t be able to buy him for today’s prices. Probably won’t be able to buy him at all. The whole reason is Pitts stans are holding tight and asking a ton and thus not really moving him is because we believe he will be a league winning TE for the next 5-7-10 years, like we’ve seen with Kelce
I mean my leagues are asking for 3 firsts and a solid young player, I don’t really now how it can go higher, he’s already at Jefferson prices.
Explain “serviceable”. It’s either Kelce/Andrews, or you’re running a decent risk of putting up 2 catches for 22yards in any given game…
Serviceable = average top 12-ish ppg which is 7-9 ppg. Kelce, Kittle, and Andrews are the exceptions.
I’d sell, Atlanta is looking to run the ball and until there’s a major QB upgrade there’s no way that both London and Pitts can be supported for fantasy relevance.
Wouldn’t say that with so much certainty. When Matt Ryan was there they threw plenty. Arthur Smith was playing to his personnel in 2022, which was limited at QB
Drop em. . . . . . So I can pick him up.
I sold the 1.03 in superflex for Sutton and Pitts, didn’t need a qb so I figured if I’m going purely for value I’d take the risk with Pitts
Screamin deal
You like that? I’ve considered sending the 1.06 in SF but can’t bring myself to lol
For Pitts? You've got NO chance.
Who are you taking at 1.06 thats better than Pitts?
Honestly, not sure. It’s really like any of Gibbs/JSN/Richardson at that point
I just dont see anyone trading Pitts for them straight up at any point anytime soon
Would you move Pitts for Dulcich and mid 1st this year (SF TEP) ?
Depends where the mid first is. I’d consider it, but probably not. Depends on team though too.
I traded him for Hockenson and the 2.08. The talent is there, but IMO as long as he’s in Atlanta he’s going to be underutilized. I feel like by the time he lands in a good situation his value will have dropped pretty significantly from where it is now.
Definitely a concern in Atlanta. Ridder has to be better than Mariota though. Almost impossible not to be
As a Browns fan, let me tell you that the grass is not always greener. It can always be worse. Ask Brandon Weeden / Brady Quinn / Johnny Manziel / a dozen others.
The highest I’m willing to offer is the 1.06 in superflex I loved pitts coming out but unless he’s actually targeted more then 4 times a game then he can’t react that potential he has. Atlanta just isn’t the spot for him but the talent for sure is there for him to reach those heights we all believe he has
are you comfortable buying at that price?
I’d be comfortable buying there but only because I’m in a situation that I can do that. Not many teams are a TE away from being a top tier team in their league. But it won’t be my first offer. I’d probably start by offering a pick in the 1.09 -1.12 range and a player like Alec pierce or Donavan peoples jones.
I was in the championship last year. Im competing with or without Pitts. Worth a gamble for 1.06 in a TEP league?
Who is your current tightend ?
OJ Howard 2.0
\*Everyone\* involved with him is heavily invested, maybe over-invested, so if he fails \*everyone\* involved will lose. He's not a player where you should even be thinking "I don't want to be left holding the bag" because we're like a million miles away from really considering that. If you've already sunk too much in him, then, well, that's now a sunk cost. The reality is whatever you've sunk in him \*might not\* be a too much, regardless of what it is (disclaimer: I chose him over Chase at #2 in the rookie draft that year, so I am included here), but it will require patience. There is absolutely no way anyone should be looking to offload him right now. The ceiling is just too high, and the production of the rookie year already put in place a super solid floor. Let's hope last year was an anomaly due to bad QB play, unexpected team positioning to win the division, and expanded TE development. There are reasons to think it will be an anomaly, so again, no reason in the world to be trying to offload him.
Sell, sell, sell, sell.
Buy if its low duh. He still awesome he had garbagota throwing at him so
What’s low for you though? I mean before last season he was like 2-3 firsts value lol
No I value him as a top 1 TE
He could underperform and get injured and is still valued as an elite dynasty tight end. Could you imagine what will happen to his value if he has a good year with touchdowns?
I don't think desmond ritter is a big step up from mariota
Agree with a lot of the sentiment that if you have him, he’s a hold and there are no buy low opportunities
What would be a “buy low” on him even though is what im curious about
Cut him, and tell of your friends and relatives it's time to let him go, then, through a long enough period of word of mouth I'll be able to add him once my league mate inevitably does the same.
Sell him to me
Kelce retires soon, Pitts comes to kc and becomes the next goat.
Jonnu signing means he’ll be blocking while Pitts is running routes. More routes + a QB who doesn’t miss him over half the time will lead to a huge jump in his production.
When I watch Falcons games I see a stud TE that is being under utilized coupled with poor QB play. Sure, there's room to grow, but he's clearly very skilled. I wouldn't be trying to move off of him anytime soon.
He is still elite and has a lot of value but not as much as he did in his rookie season with Ryan. It’s hard to say who will be his QB going forward as Ridder only played a few games to judge him. If he is stuck with another bad QB like Mariota, his potential can’t win games for you. If Ridder grows and feeds him, then he could be a top 3 lock for a while.
Hold and pray. Buy low, if you’re cool with the risk.
im buying in.
To be fair...Engrams trajectory looks great right now. He had a couple down years, but he's been a TE1 in half of his seasons and the Giants never used him the right way. Now he's in a place that uses him the right way and he has a very bright future.
Realized my team last year was not enough for the championship and made a pivot pretty early on in the season. Sent: Mandrews, Moore, Pacheco Received: Pitts, Sutton, Christian Kirk
My thoughts are… hold for eternity. Pitts truther for life
my how the turntables
If you have him I don't see how you could trade him away rn for fair value as the owner probably took him with an early pick and sees his ceiling as Gronk + Shannon Sharpe. Im not making any trades for him either. QB uncertainty, coach uncertainty, bad system for him to thrive. All red flags.
People forget that he had a historic rookie TE season, and it was still considered to be a bust given his expectations. He’s had Matt Ryan and Marcus Mariota throwing him the ball. Two of the worst QBs over the past two years in terms of DOT and accuracy. We saw what London was able to do with a less than stellar Ridder at QB last year, and Pitts is arguably more imposing and possibly more athletic than London. Even with the 25th best QB in the league next year, he should be able to have a better season than his rookie year. If he gets a top 15 QB, then he has the potential of being a top 3 TE even if London finishes top 18 WR.
I dumped pitts and Tua for Bijan. Both pitts and Tua are depleting assets.
1qb league. 1.03 or pitts?
I want no part of Pitts moving forward until we find out where he is going on his next contract. His lack of separation #s are alarming and explains why he struggles with TDs when in tighter spaces so he needs an accurate QB due to the tighter throwing windows. I think year 1 was the anomoly as he was force fed due to no other options with a much more accurate pocket QB which inflated his receiving #s. Also I see Demond Ridder as a lateral move at QB over an upgrade. Bijan and Drake may help take some of the coverage off of Pitts especially around the goal-line, but also will probably take target share/yardage as well.
I am so sick of these questions about Pitts. We all know he's a phenomenal talent but is going to under perform or outright suck until Atlanta fixes their QB problem. Until that changes, asking every other day is pointless. Stop asking.
The same people who made Pitts a top 5 asset on KTC at one point are the same ones who don’t understand how the TE position works and are left holding a bag. His perceived ceiling was always because of his measurable’s and athleticism. Neither of which actually define great TEs. It’s a position that needs to understand coverages and defenses better than the other skill positions. It’s about finding gaps in coverage and exploiting them, and turning one loose when the opportunity arises. Look at the top TEs in the past decade. Only Vernon Davis was considered a “freak,” while slow ass guys like Witten and Kelce were also dominant. Don’t sell for pennies on the dollar, but understand the guy is not this generational TE simply bc he’s 6’6 and ran a 4.4.
I largely agree with this take to the extent that I think what's being said is that a tight end's athleticism can provide a floor for his production but that truly elite players know how to dissect coverages and get open, which is a skill that players with sub-par athleticism can use to be quire effective pass-catchers. See eg, Zach Ertz. After he was placed on IR this past season, my team tanked and I traded Pitts for what turned out to be the 2023 Pick 1.01. Its still too early to say if this trade worked out for my team or not. Its probably a wash, at least now.
I tried to use Witten in my comment to emphasize the point I was attempting to make. Freak athleticism is not a defining trait of a lot of elite TEs (Gonzo, Kelce, Ertz, etc.) People pegged Pitts as someone who would transform and dominate the position simply bc he’s 6’6 and ran a 4.4. FWIW, I would take Bijan over Pitts in your trade but agree that’ll take a few seasons to know who won.
Look at Kittles measurables. Look at Gronks. Athletic ability absolutely matters for TEs. Plus pitts had a 1000 yard rookie season with a good film year sophomore season.
Kittle tested in the 95+ percentile across the board.
Eric Ebron 2.0