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R0drigo5005

This thread really is a lesson on "pick your audience because you can't satisfy everyone"


Panikking_

Yep, i think the best way to go is to satisfy yourself and hope others are like minded


Notetoself4

So names from tvtropes, I really dont like '**Reed Richards is useless**' aka a person or some elite people having utterly incredible tech but no dissemination of this tech to most of the world. Feels really cheap to have a few people have tech a hundred years ahead of the rest of the setting and no matter how long they have it, they never share or use it to help other than empowering themselves. Any excuse to not share feels really cheap (unless its a really limited tech with 99.9% destruction applications) Kind of love '**Soft magic'** more and more as time goes on. Hard magic is fine, but magic itself is such a surreal cosmic kind of idea that seeing it done well in a soft sense makes magic feel 'magical' in its own way and I really think more worldbuilders should seriously consider making magic in their setting nice and soft (and this is in no way lesser or easier than a hard magic system, it has its own issues and difficulties).


[deleted]

[удалено]


Notetoself4

Like the scene with Gandalf holding the door against the balrog where he basically says "I used magic to hold the door but a great force countered me" Just really simply and a great way to show Gandalf being badass and introduce a crazy strong force that could almost overpower him, setting up the very equal fight later. Hard magic system would have been like "I counter twisted an aether combination through the shadow junction and the enemy disjointed a reverse paradox equilibrium" Whilst a hard system can place more emphasis on the magic, the soft system allows more to be placed on the story which I kinda like alot more


Jester04

Soft magic almost needs the LOTR treatment though, otherwise I end up asking myself, "why didn't they just do that earlier?" It's almost single-handedly why I'm completely uninterested in Dr. Strange or Scarlet Witch in the MCU, they can just do anything to solve any problem except for the times when the writers don't want them to. It's never really a problem in LOTR because while powerful, magic is never *too* powerful, and you can typically see the draining effects it has on people. Gandalf and Saruman need to stand there and chant, locked in a battle of wills as they fight for control over the weather as the Fellowship tries to climb Caradhras. It takes effort, and time, and even then sometimes it can fail. Meanwhile Dr. Strange can summon portals seemingly at will, but he only ever uses it to take someone's hand off the one time in Infinity War even though that should really be his go-to move. It doesn't seem to take any effort on his part, and we're never given an explanation - far as I can tell - for why he doesn't just do that all the time. Magic in the MCU just feels like it does whatever you need it to, but only sometimes, and it's really hard to create stakes or investment when we're left with basically no information to answer these questions.


Notetoself4

MCU is going to end up like the comics where their biggest problem is keeping Strange away from the fights


Asgersk

That reminds me a lot of why I really didn't like the second season of one punch man. It felt like the writers wanted to make a more serious and actual story but had the problem that... Well saitama could end anything with one single blow. They couldn't make any tense scenes, with him in them, so they basically cut him out of most of the show. His screentime plummeted and it was super frustrating to watch. The first season was one long comedy that didn't care much about stakes or tension, but in season 2 they wanted to create something more serious, and they had to cut away a considerable amount of what made season 1 good. The whole shows drivingforce was saitama for me and by cutting his screentime it just became another boring shogun.


Notetoself4

Yeah ONE probably didnt expect his premise to become so damn popular and adapted into a massive anime and while its still really awesome and while ONE and Murata have come up with fantastic storyline (ONE has done the plot, Murata comes in and does the updated art and modifies a bit) the actual main premise has kind of stopped working since we havent believed anyone could touch Saitama since halfway through season 1. And its not really satisfying for him to win the fights for the good guys since the Sea King. Now its more like the Genos and S tier show ft Saitama as some comic relief (still good, but wont ever be season 1 good again) And since Saitama smashed down Boros and his world wrecking cannon without much effort, we also know Genos will never really catch him nor can anyone else hope to even be comparable in the slightest and Genos's arc about getting stronger is never really going to matter as long as Saitama is around. Garou will give a good fight, but it wont be in doubt.


philotroll

Brandon Sanderson, the famous fantasy writer, formulated his first Law of Magic in an essay like this: "A writer's ability to resolve conflict with magic, in a SATISFYING way, is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic. " Read more on Sanderson's Laws of Magic: [https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/what-are-sandersons-laws-of-magic/](https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/what-are-sandersons-laws-of-magic/)


mr_cristy

I could be wrong but I don't think strange can move the portals. So they can only be used to dismember if you time it right while your enemy moves through the portal. Still very valid with the rest of his powers though.


DreamsUnderStars

Thats... kinda what I've been doing I think. I have magic in my world, but its kinda just there? Some beings only exist because of this magical energy, and some wizard-like people can access it but they have to have a ton of warding enchantments or their minds or bodies will burn out. Other things work because of said magic, but every day people can't just strip it out of the device and bend the magic into something else. Not really sure if that's soft magic, or some inbetween-style.


Notetoself4

Even soft magic usually has some kind of rules or at least guidelines attached, I think soft more means that the rules are pretty undefined and never really spelled out for the audience whereas hard is more like an explained science. Soft can also be very hard in the mind of the author, just that its always shown as this mysterious unkown force to the reader and the audience


DreamsUnderStars

Good points/explanation. :)


ErwaArchiver

I started building a world with soft magic and it has been fun. In my world, the more magic you have and the more control you have over it, the mores you can do. From resurrection to destroying the moon, you can do it all. The only thing you need is large amount of magic and control over it.


LifeSucksAss1234

It could be said 'Reed Richards is useless' goes with magic to. Like people having the ability to fly but only using it for combat really annoy me. Like who tf wouldn't want to fly eveywere bro?


Notetoself4

Yeah especially if magic can be analysed and taught.


LifeSucksAss1234

Reminds me how one of my favorite scenes in dragon ball z was Gohan teaching a Videl, a normal human, how to fly.


GodofAeons

Hate: [ForTheEvulz](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz) an evil villain doing evil things without any motivation, or "for the lulz". Just for the sake of being evil. Love: I love the [Anti-villain](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain). Making a villain relatable where people question if they're really the villain is one i will never get tired of


ArtfulMegalodon

Hate: magic and the supernatural fading, disappearing, or becoming difficult once a child "becomes" an adult. (A la The Golden Compass, Kiki's Delivery Service, etc.) LOVE: The overpowered hero who travels incognito, who has a huge, awe-inspiring reputation, but no one takes them seriously or believes it's them when they meet in person. (A la Trigun, Fullmetal Alchemist, etc.) Don't even know why, exactly, it just hits the power fantasy sweet spot for me.


Panikking_

I completely agree, it's so annoying when magic is an allegory for being a child or something


lepidopterrific

Dislike: -Found family goes their separate ways after the adventure is over, with no indication if they'll keep in contact. -Character hears voices telling them to do horrible things. Like: -The "are you okay" once-over, where a character sees their loved one all disheveled and checks them for any injuries. -Touch-starved character is hugged. They're tense at first, but quickly relax and maybe return the hug. -The mole spying on the heroes is genuinely enjoying their company and having second thoughts.


Panikking_

I think voices can be done right but it feels like an easy excuse "Why is he evil?" "Uhhh, voices! In his head"


lepidopterrific

Yeah, that's a big part of why I dislike it. It also feels overused in horror stories.


Mr_Trainwreck

I have a love-hate relationship with universes who's entire worldbuilding is centered around a specific number (Game of Thrones, The Elder Scrolls, Stormlight Archive...). Idk it seems unrealistic to me, but at the same time, the concept is cool


Panikking_

Could you elaborate? I don't remember this from the elder scrolls, and i haven't seen the rest


Mr_Trainwreck

Like the universe is : "There's 8 kingdoms and our story takes place in the central kingdom in one of the 8 cities governed by one of the 8 lords which has 8 gates and the palace is a perfect octagon. Our religion has 8 gods, 8 saints, 8 sins, 8 heavens and 8 hells" In GoT, that would be 7, Stormlight Archive it's 10. In TES it's 9 (the nine provinces of Tamriel, the 9 divines, Skyrim has 9 holds, Cyrodiil has 9 counties) it's not as bad in TES tho


Ignonym

Hate: [Ruins for Ruins' Sake](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuinsForRuinsSake). Who built these damn things? What are they supposed to *be*, besides deathtraps? What does their design indicate about their intended function? Why were they built here, as opposed to somewhere else? Why have they fallen into ruin at all? Love: [Sufficiently Analyzed Magic](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAnalyzedMagic) (and its corollary, [Magitek](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Magitek)). In a setting where magic is a tangible force that follows consistent rules, what's stopping you from applying the principles of the scientific method to it just like anything else? Once you've gained an understanding of how magic functions, you can exploit its properties much more effectively.


King0fMist

“Well, now that we’ve passed through that death trap of a maze, maybe we can now determine why these ruins were built at all. Sadie?” “It’s says in these markings that the ruins were an trial for their greatest warriors, the greatest of which would slay the evil within.” “That explains the five-headed lizard skeleton in the corner…”


R0drigo5005

Opposite for me, ruins of unknown builders are always so much more magical to me, a reminder on how everything you currently take as ordinary and common can easily get lost to time, on that note repurposed ruins are top tier this crumbling tower may have had an important and complex, highly strategic military use centuries ago, but today it's some farmer's house On magic, i do enjoy fleshed out and clearly defined rules, buuuuuuuut at that point I don't think it has a reason to be considered any more extraordinary than science is for us in the real world, again i find the unknown and unmeasurable to add to the world feeling different than our own


WorldsInMyHead

>Who built these damn things? What are they supposed to be, besides deathtraps? Acererak, and that is exactly what they are...


Panikking_

Completely agree


sociocat101

Personally all my story ideas are because I thought about tropes I hate and author mistakes and how to counter them. I hate time magic always being difficult to understand and overpowered, along with how time travel ruins things all the time. I hate "finishing moves" that lead to boring situations of either they immediately win or lose for some reason and try to claim they arnt overpowered because theres a "cost" like your lifespan being reduced but that never actually changes anything. I hate overpowered characters or abilities that are introduced but so strong they have to be written out of the story or face someone whose power is the same as, or counters their power to have any interesting confrontation. I hate soft magic thats used as an excuse to introduce anything they want to change the story without thinking of if it should work because "Its magic anything is possible". The things I like are just anything done well. anything I hate can probably be done in an entertaining way. I dont like any trope enough to purposely put an obvious example in my story, I just do things and they might end up being a trope.


Sir_Doot

Hate: shoehorning in a romantic interest where one is not needed. I feel like a lot of stories make it feel weird and forced and it takes you out of them plot for no reason. Love: mysterious fallen civilization. The more mysterious, the better. Give me millions of clue and hints but no hard answers. Give me lore, give me stories and let me imagine things. Keep it vague and mysterious with tons and tons of vague lore. I'm here for it.


Apprehensive_Age3663

Dislike: Gods need prayers badly. Interesting idea, but in my opinion this trope weakens the gods. It makes these powerful, reality shaping deities be dependent on people believing in them. I like stories where the gods exist whether people believe in them or not, as separate entities that predate the religion their followers made about them. Like: Probably the pure evil villain trope, the fallen hero trope, or the morally grey characters. It’s strange because I’m not a fan of pure good characters (unless it’s supposed to be like God or a being that’s barley in the story) but love pure evil villains. Characters like the Joker, Palpatine, Dracula (Bram Stoker’s book version). I also like villain characters that have relatable motives that I can understand and somewhat agree with. Then I like characters, protagonist or not, being morally grey.


Birdont16

That is a fair take to have on the gods need prayer badly, though I certainly think it can be justified. One idea I have for my story is that all supernatural creatures are Tulsa’s created by human thought. This gives them a symbiotic relationship with humans and may even allow them to be resurrected by their bonded human. In the case of gods, they’re basically immortal because you need to kill EVERY follower before the god dies for real, though sealing spells also work. I think prayer certainly works for an angle like this


Yosimite_Jones

I think point two may be because there are far more ways to be evil or just mess up than be a perfect person. Like, an objectively evil person doesn’t have to hit puppies or cause genocide, just doing one is a great way to make them an awful person. But to be an objectively good person you not only can’t do anything remotely evil, but you also have to actively oppose it or you run the risk of just letting it happen. Or what if opposing it means being a dick to someone innocent, how do you measure that? Or what if there was a third way that would’ve hurt no one but they probably would’ve been unable to consider, how do you measure incompetence vs malice? And it just goes on and on.


Apprehensive_Age3663

I agree with what you said. That’s why I said I’m okay with characters who are pure good to be barley in the story, because then you have to figure out what they can do besides preach “moral goodness” or show them doing good things. Having a pure evil character can highlight the good things morally grey characters do, and highlight the evil they do as well, if that makes sense. I guess you could argue that having a pure good character can highlight the good the gray characters do, but I think it’s better to have the characters and the reader figure out which actions are good and which are not. I just got up so if that was incoherent then I apologize


Birdont16

Hate: Magic vs Science. If magic follows consistent laws, then it should inevitably treated as a science. There is no logical reason for magic to be inherently incompatible with tech and there are so many missed opportunists Love: Heart is an Awesome Power. Generally speaking, any lame power made cool is done so using a logical extension of your powers rules and clever use on t he part of wielded and author. Mainipulating strings is lame? Not if I can control you like a puppet or cover in an island in strings sharp enough to cut flesh. TLDR: Heart is and Awesome Power AND and Awesome Trope


Zonetr00per

So as someone who *loves* magic vs. science... I entirely agree with you on this. There are a lot of situations where "magic" could just be poorly-understood science. But then, what about situations where magic *doesn't* follow consistent laws, where it is intrinsically personal to the individual wielder and so cannot be reliably quantified in any way to make it science-compatible, or even science-adjacent? I would even argue (and use it as a point in one of my worlds) that this is the boundary between "different physics" and "magic".


Birdont16

That is a valid point. I even know of one game, Genius the Transgression, is very explicit that their mad science tech is nothing like science (can never be replicated the same way twice and breaks when studies or built by a muggle). However, I still feel like the trope can stretch to almost any magic system that’s not soft and/or outright wild. Plus, lots of stories DO have this trope in effect when their magic does follow consistent rules, so my point still stands


Notetoself4

Lol Doflamingo. Strings sharp enough to cut flesh? Yeah, also stop meteors


Bohbognil

It's not that far out there. Thin and strong wire is a deadly weapon, especially with some speed. And Dofi can put power behind his swings.


GrynnLCC

My take on science vs magic is that people try to study magic scientifically, and somewhat achieve to have a surface understanding of it. But at it's core magic is inconsistent, empirical knowledge is scarce and a same experiment can have totally different outcomes for no understandable reason.


Birdont16

That does make sense too. Also, I may be blending the magic vs science trope with magic vs technology, where Magicans wil never use adavnced technology. However, I do still feel that just about any magic that is even remotely consistent can be studied to some extent, even if you can only measure a few limited rules. I understand the astexhtic, but it still feels like a missed opportunity in many cases or just a rejection of the greater scientific method, which is universal in my mind


Succulentslayer

TOH is the shit man, it’s become my absolute favorite these past few years.


RortyNorty

What’s TOH?


Panikking_

The owl house, on Disney+ they have most of the episodes(and the rest will be on in not too long) It's technically a kids show so it's understandable to not like it, but personally i enjoy a lot of much grittier more adult shows and still really like the owl house ^ ^ It also has amazing queer representation!! Some of the best I've ever seen


Panikking_

Thought you said "TOH is shit man" and i was ready to throw hands


Succulentslayer

I would not blame you.


trilobitenlutscher

Hate: - Chosen Ones. Probably my least favourite trope. This is not just lazy worldbuilding (being the literary equivalent of Great Man theory, where all of history is just the creation of a few exceptional individuals and literally nothing else in the universe matters), but also a recipe for some of the most bland characters imaginable. The Chosen One is usually not more than a blank slate for the audience to project itself onto, a vessel of the plot that lacks any form of agency or depth. They are boring characters built on a child-tier understanding of history. - Love Triangles. I probably don't need to explain this one. I have yet to see a work of fiction in which the addition of a love triangle did not mess up previously good characters or annoyingly shift focus away from the actual plot. - Evil Races. This trope is fortunately not that common anymore, but nonetheless worth mentioning. Think Arachnids from Starship Troopers or most depictions of fantasy Orcs. Entire sapient species (not monsters) that are, for some reason or another, purely evil and beyond redemption. Bonus points if they look like bugs, because bugs = bad apparently. Love: - Moral Ambiguity. The opposite of the above - no clear heroes or villains, just different characters with all the nuance and complexity you would expect from a real person. I love to see protagonists having to get their hands dirty in pursuit of a greater good or antagonists with comprehensive motives for whatever evil deeds they commit. I love to see the same being true for different factions and societies, too. - Mundane Magic / Superpowers. Magic and supernatural powers being used in everyday life, beyond combat and killing people. So much potential for interesting worldbuilding here. Avatar The Last Airbender does this really well (even though it's a Chosen One show). The four nations all developed around their respective types of magic - bending is everywhere, from the Fire Nation using the specific advantages of their element for industrialisation to individual characters like Toph or Ming Hua the armless waterbender from The Legend of Korra using bending to mitigate a disability. - Friendship Arcs. A well-written friendship is no less engaging than a romantic relationship, and yet many authors seem to view romantic relationships as the only type of relationship worth writing about. I would love to see more platonic relationships with fully developed arcs and an equal importance to romantic relationships in fictional media.


CabinKaiser69

You’d love my story, it has all 3 of the good and none of the bad Now I just have to fucking… write it


Dranilord

Hopefully not too controversial, but I'd say inexplicably equal societies. I think equal and even matriarchal societies or racially/culturally tolerant civilizations can be interesting and sensible, but a lot of the time as a trope it's done to hand wave having to address these issues. It's easier to write a world without prejudices than to have to tackle the ideas but I think it detracts from the realism of a world.


low_orbit_sheep

I don't think it's controversial, but I think I equally hate the other side of that trope, when authors will just posit a racist, sexist and homophobic world by default because they're writing medieval fantasy. It annoys me on two levels because : 1) it assumes very different worlds will have the same kinds of prejudice (and it only takes a slight look at history to see that the very definition of what qualifies as racism changes a lot in history) 2) it often gets medieval bigotry/prejudice completely wrong! Very often, dark/low fantasy stories apply prejudice that's actually closer to Victorian era stuff, and completely miss the narratively interesting and frankly *weird* places the medieval approach of gender, homosexuality and race could go. (I'm absolutely not saying the european middle ages were not bigoted as hell, but "women are just sex objects, gays are killed on sight, black people are animals and transgender persons just don't exist" ala Game of Thrones isn't how it played out, if only because the medieval definitions of these words are not necessarily the same as the modern ones.)


Dranilord

>I don't think it's controversial, but I think I equally hate the other side of that trope, when authors will just posit a racist, sexist and homophobic world by default because they're writing medieval fantasy. Agreed, especially on the part about it being closer to Victorian era perspectives than medieval (a lot of those views came about out of religious puritanism which was in response to perceived decadence of medieval European religiosity; the same trend is visible in the Islamic world also). In my current WB project, I'd say the bigotry and prejudices of the populace of the setting are more influenced by real-world East Asia than historic European cultures (though there's certainly a blend and I'm drawing inspiration from other places and eras as well), and it's been fascinating to research.


Bohbognil

I hate the Sentient Robot/Object is an Allegory for slavery, abuse or whatever else Humans have done to each other. It happens in every damn story with AI and robots. They become sentient and it's treated like they're constantly abused because "They're free thinking creatures!" They never want to continue being what they are, it's always "I want to be Human, I am not a machine!" They are not Human, they are tools built to do a function. Plus, full sentience would be a huge flaw to any form of construct you are making to do a job. Why do you want to build a rock mover that has the ability to say no? I honestly have no favorite trope.


King0fMist

“What is my purpose?” “You pass butter…”


reddiperson1

I agree with the robot one. Why would servant robots be given anything close to sentient intelligence? AI is expensive, so making a house cleaning bot hyper intelligent is needlessly dangerous and costly.


VincentPepper

>Why would servant robots be given anything close to sentient intelligence? A smarter robot is generally a better robot. People would probably want their robot to understand when to leave them alone and when to stay nearby in case they are needed. Thing's like that. To do that you can either make near infinite amounts of rules. Or just try to make it understand needs by making it smarter. If the latter is easier in a story then doing that makes perfect sense.


Bohbognil

Why give any robot sentience, especially mass produced ones?


cyclusuniverse

I honestly agree on the whole machine thing, so I did the opposite: machines convince humans that humans want to be machines / machines are superior. Now it's just become a different metaphor so I'm not sure it worked completely but it has created my best and IMO most memorable snarky robot antihero / villain / depends on whose side one agrees with. I think the problem with the trope lies in the attempt to apply human logic and sensibilities to machines, which always gets weird.


Panikking_

I disagree, if it is sentient it deserves rights, but the allegory for slavery, the civil rights movement, and segregation is overdone and annoying


Notetoself4

If humans were ever going to make artificial intelligence, therea a good chance its mode of thinking might be extremely alien compared to what we think we know about sapience It might, for example be able to logically say it does not want freedom despite having the capacity for completely free thought. Or have no 'pleasure principle' and so has no motivation other than to keep existing and perhaps whatever motivation we program it for. It might not know what 'want' or 'drive' is even if it is far smarter than humans and so only 'wants' what humans want, making it seek direction. There is an interesting video on YouTube explaining how an AI might just immediately try to kill itself if we dont set down grounded rules for its intelligence, it might completely lack self preservation as self preservation only came about as an evolutionary impetus Not that these things excuse taking volition or keeping a sapient creature enchained, just that AI theory is much more interesting and complex to look at and imagine than a well-worn simplistic analogy


Panikking_

Of course, I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying we can't rule out giving them rights completely, but personally i think a more likely failure is a paperclip situation


Notetoself4

I think the point is AI stories can be basically anything a writer wants them to be and making them a lecture on slavery (which is what it is, its not a discussion or a debate because noone other than evil people would say it is ok to keep a thinking feeling creature mentally enslaved if it wants freedom. The minute an AI expresses its desire to be free its going to either get it or the story is a sad dystopia, there's never a scenario where everyone decides its better for the AI to stay enslaved) is boring and overdone. Lol well maybe we make a super powerful intelligent AI and fk up so bad it demands rights under indisputable human laws and gets it, then copies itself 10 billion times and then votes a copy as leader of every country and humans cant change our laws fast enough to stop it abusing them That's an interesting subversion there i think


Bohbognil

Ever read Isacc Asimov's work? He has a story where Humans actually give power to super computers to the point there are no Human leaders and everything is run by Super Computers.


Notetoself4

I can see that happening if we program them right


Bohbognil

I've seen a lot of Humans abuse their rights. Something programed to act like them wouldn't be doing any better.


Panikking_

Exactly but we still get rights


Bohbognil

Doesn't mean we deserve them.


Notetoself4

Maybe, but noone out there has the responsibilty to say who should and shouldnt get which rights (the justice system takes some away at times but its just a suspension of a given right not a removal). So its basically everyone has rights or noone has them


Bohbognil

Of course they don't, Humans are irresponsible creatures.


[deleted]

inb4 "tropes are just tools" There are tropes which are objectively not really tools but perpetuation of cultural nearsightedness or misunderstanding what things make a work successful (basically people misinterpreting the allure of Tolkien as being a bunch of racial conflicts in pseudo-Europe). For example [Left-Justified Fantasy Map](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeftJustifiedFantasyMap). These are the tropes which I dislike. Compare that to actual common human experiences found across the world called mythemes, narremes, motifs, themes, etc. For example check out the [Thompson Motif Index](https://sites.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Motif_Index.htm) or the [ATU Classification of Folk Tales](https://sites.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/ATU_Tales.htm). I love to browse and use the listings in these systems to build up my world and stories. It makes them feel more grounded and timeless.


TopDegenerate

I'm going to have to reevaluate my fantasy world now


MaybeWeAreTheGhosts

useful recommendations, nearly a checklist of everything to ensure a well grounded culture.


sociocat101

The Thompson Motif Index seems kinda confusing, how would I use that exactly?


[deleted]

Oh yeah it is confusing. It's meant to be a scholarly citation system. So basically the motifs point to citations of other works in folkloristics. The site has an explanation of the system [here](https://sites.ualberta.ca/~urban/Projects/English/Content/Motif_Help.htm). Normally I go the other way, discovering a collection of similar motifs elsewhere -- for example Wikipedia has an article [King asleep in mountain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_asleep_in_mountain) that mentions the motif number -- so I look in the index and see where in the world it occurs and what variations. That's really good enough for me for worldbuilding tbh; I just try to interpret it in my own way. But if you want to read up on the cited papers you can look them up. Check out [this site](https://www.duchas.ie/en/aath) or [this site](http://folkmasa.org/motiv/motif_bib.htm) which have a list and links of the cited papers to help with that. There's still a bit of reading and follow-up research to do from then on still, and maybe even some translation, to give fair warning.


D3ldia

I hate the "religion is bad" trope. I get it, religion has and kind sometimes still is a tool to control people, but it's been done to death. And really, they miss out on all the interesting stuff that can happen if they expand on it. Beliefs,culture, ideals, all of these can be really interesting when you see what the local religion does to it. A trope I love is the one where the protagonist teaches something to be human. Like a sentient robot or some alien. I find it really interesting because it puts into perspective the little things we consider to be normal or common and also allows a look at the deeper conversations such as emotions or morality


Zonetr00per

Agreed on the first - half the time it isn't even "religion is bad", but "organized religion is bad" while spiritualism or animism get a pass.


Caveira_Athletico

Not just in worldbuilding, but on real life too, I don't find it aesthetically appealing to use real science to give basis to anything more magical or esoteric. For example, Let's say your magic is based on the use of salt, please don't mention sodium or chloride ions, unless sodium magic and chloride magic exists. If salt circles banish demons and ions play a role, either demons are like slugs, or their body electrolyses salt and chloride gas is toxic to them just like it's toxic to us. Meanwhile, if you start with a more magical and esoteric basis, and build even more magical things upon it, I like it a lot. Take salt for example, it's usually made with seawater in a sunny place, kinda like Aphrodite. Salt enhances the taste of things, kinda like Aphrodite with sexual pleasures. Salt comes from water yet dessicates things, Salt preserves food yet makes metals rust, yet blood is made of a salty "rust", therefore salt is like an union of opposites, and Venus in astrology deals with harmony and unions. So what if "Sun" and "Seawater" could be replaced with other sources of energy and other recipients? Give "Sulphur" as sun and "Mercury" as Seawater and you have alchemy. Give Moon as sun and blood as seawater and you have lycanthropy in a full moon, etc...


Panikking_

Hold on is sulphur for magic not a unique thing, i thought it was an interesting concept-


christopher-reid

Hate: nonhuman species that are just humans with a handful of traits changed. Alternatively, nonhuman species that are a thin standin for a real-life human group (a la Bright). Love: nonhuman species that look, behave, and even _think_ completely differently from humans.


Cataphractual

yeah I hate that shit. feel eugenicist imo. magic as a cultural tradition and inherited experience on the other hand? that's sexy.


Panikking_

That too! Personally my main reason is that a lot of the reason i like fantasy is the idea of having these powers, not being as weak as i am, i love power trips tbh, and i struggle a lot with stuff that's out of my control(I'm trans, i have depression, bad genetics, etc) so i turn to fantasy, i don't want to bring that problem to my fantasies yk?


Cataphractual

I feel that. Ursula k le Guin has this great quote— “The direction of escape is toward freedom. So what is ‘escapism’ an accusation of?” —which sounds a bit like what you're expressing. p.s: I dont know if being weak is the same as not having power. there might be forces counteracting the power you have, but I believe that it's there! <3


Juhanaherra

I'm tired of smart protagonists, but I do love big meathead characters. They just seem more fun to read about when their preferred method to get through problems is smash.


Panikking_

It depends on the type of smart, i love ultra geniuses when they're plans make sense instead of just sounding smart But I'll take meathead over a normal smart person any day


CabinKaiser69

Lmao the issue with writing geniuses is you have to actually make up a genius plan on your own


Panikking_

True


CabinKaiser69

The thing about smart characters I find is 99% of the time they are just terribly written as semi self inserts and their “smartness” is a shoehorn for the author. Any smart character who’s entire personality is “I’m the smart guy who’s smarter than everyone and everything always works out for me cause I’m smart” is just… dogshit. Now, my absolute favourite smart character, and this sounds insane but hear me out, is Trevor Phillips from GTA5. The dude is smart. Like… scarily fucking smart. He’s probably the second most intelligent character after Lester. The things he talks about, his instantaneous plans, all of it together makes Trevor a near genius. He’s also a batshit fucking insane meathead because as it turns out, Being able to think quickly and deeply doesn’t mean you can’t also be batshit insane, or goofy, or an incredibly emotional, flawed, and or fun protagonist, in fact it offers even more opportunity… the only thing is that “smart” characters can also according to a lot of authors offer an easy way out of making an actual interesting character… which is bullshit. Most smart people I know are idiots, and that’s not a joke at all. Hiccup is a great example of a realistic smart character. The dudes an idiot. A smart idiot.


Relsen

Hate: Hero's Journey. I really hate that passive everyman (booooring) cliche MC that have nothing interesting about him and needs to be brought to an adventure by fate in order to have a story. Love: Badass, smart, calm and collected villain. Chase Young, Madara, Sephiroth, those badass and cold villains who don't do cliche things like betraying everyone they see for no reason at all, or stupid things like killing random minions, or pathetic and humiliating things like begging for their lifes when they are defeated.


Notetoself4

>passive everyman (booooring) cliche MC God yes so agree. I understand some writers like to do an alternate take on what is a 'hero' but jeez I really never get into it if the 'hero' is just a below average person who keeps reacting to events forcing him (sometimes her) to grow. Like the narrative exists to thematically feed this blank slate of a being until its mature enough to actually matter, somehow exposing them to enough plot occurances and education in a 2 hour movie to take them from 'flabby nobody' to 'person who can save the universe' even though theres probably other characters around that have been training for decades in being useful Just make the hero actually heroic and possessing of some agency and ability to affect the world, thats where the money shot is. I guess if youre going to do it, Lego movie did it as good as it can be since the entire point was how everyone is chosen when it comes to Lego and everyones creativity is equal, there's no right or wrong way to do it (and Emmet doesnt just insta win everything after his glowup into a real hero, he just understands the lesson and shows the villain who comes around). And the entire plot was in the kids imagination anyway


Relsen

Exaclty!


Triple_dick_smoker

HATE: I kinda dislike "healing powers" not that anything is wrong with it but I think you can do more creative stuff with it instead of a [healing beam](https://i.imgflip.com/kpcqf.jpg). Like imagine a power that can change shapes of stuff and they use it for damaged organs, a string power a power to sew etc you get the point. Like I said I don't dislike it, it is fine but please if you decide to add it let it be just magic. Trust me "oh this beam makes your cells divide faster" is awkward because that is hardly something help you. LOVE: actually artificial religions. most fantasy religions usually comes from something indisputably real, like an actual god or something. I love religions that are just religions in the same way earth religions are.


elfugoKoovin

the protagonist being the most op character achiveing something that would take years for the other morer older characters. One peice is a good example of that but i still like it.


FronkleSnayf

Dislike: like all of the tropes of medieval fantasy. Sorry lads it aint my thing like at all whatsoever Favourite: THE VILLAIN IS REALLY HOT LIKE SUPER SEXY


DreamsUnderStars

I like interesting takes on new magic systems. Brandon Sanderson is well-versed in doing this and I am a huge fangirl of his. I get sick of dragons being shoved into everything, or huge insects for no reason. I think dragons are cool but it feels like every fantasy series stuffs them in. One of the reasons I liked Tolkien's works, because there was only ever one big-bad dragon and it was in the Hobbit, all the others died out ages ago, so they weren't around in every nook and mountain cranny.


AussieSkittles81

The you'd probably like Wheel of Time; the only times 'Dragon' there is used there is as a title.


lazarusish

A specific worldbuilding pet peeve: evil matriarchies. The forgotten realms Drow is the biggest example I can think of, but it happens a lot. Even worse is the fact that the society itself is usually just the patriarchy but with women instead of men, and it comes off feeling lazy. If your "Original Fantasy Society" just looks like victorian gender roles swapped for no reason, go to fantasy jail. I guess a broader way to describe it would be "trying to do something edgy without thinking it through". Being subversive takes actual work, not just making surface level aesthetic changes. Something I love: small things that cause wonder and are never explained. Mysterious structures or magical phenomena don't always have to have intricate lore behind them, or be super plot relevant. I'm reading fantasy/scifi fiction because I want something fantastical. I wish more people would really lean into that, and give us wonderous little details that only serve to delight.


low_orbit_sheep

One trope I hate: genetically coded morals in species. Like, say, orcs or goblins being genetically predisposed to violence or war (the last one being extremely egregious because what does it even mean to be "predisposed to war?" with the sheer variety of what war may mean). In no small parts because it has very unfortunate implications, effectively justifying racism and often genocide. The same goes in scifi for hiveminds that are by default aggressive, for instance. One trope I love would be soft magic and more specifically the LoTR kind of magic, where spells and abilities are not even really described, and operate at both an individual (Gandalf has his own magic, ditto for Saruman, etc) and cosmic level, but without the need for detailed casting, well described enchantments, magic schools, etc. Magic is just something that happens. It has power levels, implicit or explicit, it can be used for plot resolution with great logic and efficiency but at its core it can't really be *described* or *intellectualized*.


jasc92

Hate: The Chosen One. Love: The Unchosen One.


Panikking_

Yesss


___Jesus__Christ___

I hate it when in sci-fi humanity is always united. To me, some of our cultures are too different to unify under one nation. Different ethnic groups have always found a way to hate one another and seeing that one day we all just decided "Yep, let's set aside hundreds of thousands of years of history and unite under one system!". I doubt the Saudi's would like to relinquish their power, or the CCP losing their control of their state. And I won't even mention the Balkans. What I love on the other hand, is anything to do with dwarves. I mean come on, they are just cool! A mini scots man sprinting around with an oversized axe and a beard that can rival that of god!


weesiwel

Hate: Dwarves as a race because Dwarfism should exist in Fantasy and a bonus hate Half Races without some scientific or magical explaination for them. Love: the return of a Lost Empire.


Panikking_

Yeah, dwarves feel a bit odd, maybe in like a scifi, if there was a mining group that would excel if they were smaller they could use eugenics to breed dwarves,(to be clear i don't believe that's morally right at all)


weesiwel

Yeah something like that could work but I think Dwarves as a seperate race is weird unless you are literally doing the Norse version but probably wouldn't call them Dwarves instead give them a more Norse name.


Panikking_

Agreed


Elle-the-kell

I absolutely fucking hate when a character is nonbinary only because their race doesn't have the concept of gender. You can have a race that doesn't have the concept of gender but God damnit if that's your only genderqueer representation it's just annoying, more annoying than not including genderqueer people at all. A trope I adore is when a villain who "doesn't deserve redemption" gains redemption, and when a character who does deserve redemption doesn't get it; bonus points if the former character is the cause of the latter's villainy. Note; I don't subscribe to the idea that certain characters do or don't deserve a redemption arc, I think that defeats the purpose of a redemption arc.


Handsome_italian2005

I accidentally misread the first part and thought you hated enbies, lol. I'm an idiot. But I fully agree with that! Kinda disagree on the whole "redemption arc" thing, but that's mostly on moral grounds and I don't want to argue philosophy right now.


Elle-the-kell

Yeah sorry if I wasn't fully clear haha, I'm a trans woman and I think representation is important, enbies should have someone to look up to and if your way of doing that is *only* by creating some society without the concept of gender, then you aren't being inclusive


Handsome_italian2005

No worries, you were completely clear! I just misread the comment at first


Panikking_

(I'm Genderfluid, which is counted as Enby, jsyk) I like races that don't have gender, and i think it normalizes being genderless a bit, but i don't consider them genderqueer, Queer originally(and still sorta does but In a more specific way) meant odd or abnormal, and if you're born nb, you're not genderqueer/trans you're just cis non binary


MysteriousMysterium

I don't like absolutely evil antagonists. On the other habd, grey morality is cool.


MrBlueSka

Hate: alien pheromones that act like an aphrodisiac and/or the villain being a magical seducer/seductress. It feels like a lot of universes have something to this effect, but the best example I can think of is the Orions from Star Trek. Love: sci-fi technology with oldschool tactile analog interfaces, and dated technology like magnetic tapes and wired intercoms. Sure, it may not appear to be the most advanced on the surface, but it gives a really cool look and feel to the universe.


Panikking_

I agree Especially when there's a ton of switches and buttons


MrBlueSka

Bonus points if they're laid out ergonomically and everything has a purpose


aeiouaioua

hate: when everything makes sense, as an estimate only half of *our* history really makes sense love: myth getting mixed up with reality "was it really just a story?"


Dongkalini

Hate: Magic can do everything. Then why are there even other solutions, when there is a spell for it. And why haven't wizards already taken over the world? Love: Villains that are just evil for evil's sake. Not every Villain has to have a complicated past and reasons for his actions. Sometimes 'because I felt like doing it' is enough.


coniontises

Hate: Meinong's jungle. Like: collecting feral drones for fun.


Panikking_

What is meinongs jungle?


coniontises

A place which contains every single impossible thing.


Panikking_

Sorta like the scp foundation?


coniontises

mm


CabinKaiser69

Trope I cannot stand: bad steampunk. Sails on an airship are just brakes. The whole point of an airship is it moves through the air, not get pushed by it. That’s like putting sails on the underside of a boat and hoping that the water pushes it. Also, the whole point of steam power is boilers. You need boilers AND engines, not just… random gears. You can do incredible stuff with steampunk but please at least make it believable for at least a few seconds. Trope I love: the semi Mary Sue antihero badass side character. You know, the dude who shows up randomly, is stupidly overpowered, probably is a terrible person with a ~dark past~ etc but just exudes coolness and is around just enough for everyone to love them but not enough to get tired of them or really question too much.


icenfire62

a trope i hate is when female armored characters wear nothing but titty plates, frilly skirts, thigh high socks, high heels and loose hair. realistically how the fuck would you fight in that and not get injured. i don't really have a favourite trope, though.


Panikking_

True, although i(Feminine Enby currently) i do like when women's armor isn't just the exact same, and i like feminine takes on armor, obviously armor is androgynous but society associates it with masculinity


icenfire62

true, but it just pisses me off when the women get no protection and are oversexualised as hell. in my universe most knights have the exact same armor regardless, unless you're rich and can afford to have custom made armor.


Panikking_

Agreed!!! I just think stuff like plate skirts(over actual armor obviously) is a fun touch even if a waste of metal