I absolutely agree. His reluctance to fight really came out of nowhere. I get that he was scared in Saiyan Saga, but he was a newbie and much younger. Dude was in the cage with Freeza just an arc ago.
I think it’s less he wants to be a pacifist and more that he doesn’t like fighting. Gohan is a smart character, and I think he sees what being a fighter can do to someone, making you so focused on it that you neglect other important things (Goku) or become so obsessed with it that you’re willing to do whatever it takes to be the best (Vegeta).
The thought scares him, he hates the thought of becoming so powerful that he becomes something else, which is exactly what happens when he goes SSJ2, he becomes so engrossed with how powerful he is that he doesn’t finish cell off and let’s him almost destroy the world
And it doesn’t come out of nowhere either. As early as the Sayian saga, we clearly see how scared he is of fighting Raditz, even though he dealt some good damage to Raditz. He isn’t a pacifist, he’s a scared boy who doesn’t want to lose himself.
I get that Gohan doesn't want to be like Goku or Vegeta but after Raditz and Nappa he still stepped up to protect his friends/family up until Cell. Doesn't really vibe with me that he decides to not do that when his Dad all but says that Gohan is their only hope... idk, it just seems like Gohan's fear comes out of nowhere in that specific moment.
Maybe if Goku had told him ahead of time that he was earth's only hope, but Goku just kinda sprung it on him in the middle of the fight when he assumed Goku would take care of everything.
I'll say what nobody else is going to say then...
Gohan wasn't written out of character, he was starting to *gain* a character. Toriyama, up until this point, honestly hadn't characterized Gohan very much. That was the first point, despite him existing for two whole arcs before, where he started to really give him some unique, defining traits beyond "generic child".
Gohan was a replacement for Goku as the child character to appeal to the younger audience. Contrary to what people will tell you, in Dragon Ball, Goku actually had a lot of complex character to him, and grew as a person as he got older. Sure, compared to the average Shonen protagonist, he might be a big generic. But, Shonen protagonists aren't exactly relatable, they have a lot of qualities about them that kids can't realistically emulate.
But Gohan? Gohan had no qualities that a kid couldn't emulate. He was a stereotypical nervous good boy in over his head, and other than that was totally bland in every way. This allowed the young readers to project onto him. And, when Gohan got angry, he became super strong and badass. This made the readers that projected onto him feel cool and special, as if they were strong and badass too. That's why Gohan is such a popular, overly-worshipped character in modern DB, in the western fandom; they all started with DBZ, not DB, and have nostalgia for kid Gohan, who they projected their own power fantasies onto.
But eventually, Toriyama gave Gohan more unique qualities, and fans got angry, because they couldn't project anymore. That's why so many people hate Great Saiyaman, despite that form of Gohan being the objectively most unique incarnation: they couldn't relate to him anymore and live their vicarious power fantasy.
So yeah, pacifist Gohan was Toriyama trying to find his footing in giving Gohan a personality beyond just "child" It just took him until the Buu Saga to really find it.
>So yeah, pacifist Gohan was Toriyama trying to find his footing in giving Gohan a personality beyond just "child" It just took him until the Buu Saga to really find it.
I don't mind this if the "pacifist" Gohan had some on-screen build up but it felt like it came out of nowhere.
I also, loved the Great Saiyaman arc for Gohan. It was hilarious and actually made him feel unique in the world he lived/lives in... shame so many people just want "get angry and punch" from him :\\
Like I said, they want it because they're nostalgic for the time when they could pretend that Gohan was them, even subconsciously. The whole "Gohan hype, Goku terrible" stuff is a western thing, purely because they started on DBZ, since it got localized first. In Japan, they started with the original DB, so everyone over there loves Goku.
And yeah, pacifist Gohan did come out of nowhere, but that's also what I'm saying. Toriyama is notorious for writing by the absolute seat of his pants to an extreme degree. He's admitted he doesn't even plan a single chapter ahead sometimes. He probably realized that he had to set up Gohan as the new protagonist, so started giving him actual character with no build-up.
>I don't mind this if the "pacifist" Gohan had some on-screen build up but it felt like it came out of nowhere.
i think that's what the commenter was getting at. you didnt feel anything, you just noticed what literally was happening - he got characterization out of no where. arguably because toriyama realized he had no character up to that point. he needed some kind of arc, at least we're asserting this is probably what toriyama was thinking. it was never going to be done gracefully because it was thought of later on. like a lot of stuff in dragon ball honestly.
He wasn’t a pacifist. He called the fight pointless because he realized Goku’s plan and thought it wouldn’t work because as he says “I don’t like to fight like dad does”.
While it may be true that Gohan doesn't like to fight like Goku, he was still the only one capable of beating Cell at the time... makes little sense to me that Gohan wouldn't at least try to fight to stop Cell from, you know, destroying the planet if he wins...
> he was still the only one capable of beating Cell at the time...
Gohan doesn't believe that's true. Would you have believed you could be stronger than your dad at 10 years old? Imagine if your dad was the guy who beat Frieza, the monster that basically taught you true fear when you were a little younger. Gohan watched Frieza kill Krillin, too.
He does, gohan says himself says that he knows why goku sent him out to fight https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1025794759274532917/1087065790525734932/IMG_4224.jpg
Fair point but Gohan felt that Goku AND Cell were holding back because, as Goku pointed out, he was comparing them to himself. He may not have believed he was stronger but Gohan never even tried to fight back against Cell until 16 was destroyed.
Not until 16 is destroyed... he spends the entire "fight" before then just dodging or blocking because he doesn't want to fight Cell. THAT'S the complaint. This is not the same kid who faced down Vegeta twice and was willing to throw hands with Frieza (who's strength eclipsed his dozens of times over but when he fights Cell (who he's relatively equal to in power) he clams up and doesn't want to fight... makes it seem like he's either a pacifist or considers Cell too weak to fight until he (Gohan) snaps.
He kicks Cell in the head in the head prior to 16 being destroyed and attempts to attack again.
Gohan was just getting his ass kicked because Cell was strong. He wasn’t holding back because he didn’t wanna fight. He was just losing.
Their fight starts in chapter 405. Gohan dodges for a sec until Cell uses his "full speed" and sends him flying into a mountain. Gohan walks out relatively unharmed and says he doesn't want to fight but he knows why Goku wanted him too.
He kicks him once in chapter 406 but then spends the rest of the chapter dodging Cell's attacks while Cell tries to get him angry. Chapter ends with Cell going after Goku and friends
Chapter 407 the Cell Jrs are born - Gohan tries to lunge at Cell but gets knocked back
Chapter 408 Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2
At no point was Cell's power overwhelming Gohan to any extreme's. Had Gohan been serious about fighting he could have done much better and possibly won withot ssj2 or even managed to access it without losing himself to anger and sadness
Finally someone says it! Its one of the reasons why I believe dbz started going down hill after the frieza arc. People would be complaining that super ruined dragon ball when half their complaints originate from dbz post frieza saga
I think it was more like Toriyama tried to add more to Gohan's character it just didn't work. In theory you could retroactively justify that he doesn't enjoy fighting or doesn't really want to. That doesn't mean you should though
I don't think he really knew what to do with him
he was compassionate, and with that compassion came anger, but because he was compassionate he was also scared to let his anger out, he would fight if he had to, or if he got pissed and lost control, but its not the same to consciously release yourself from your inhibitions like that, and even when the cell jrs came out he knew that he had to get angry to unlock his true power, but he was holding himself back mentally, until 16’s blood was basically on his hands, that’s why when he does let it out he gets cocky, because it’s the first time he’s been able to fight without his morals to some degree
this is also one of the reasons i love dbza, because tfs had the same interpretation that i did
Ooh this is actually something I thought about. So what is Gohan's fatal flaw in these sorts of fights usually? If he isn't just right out weaker than his enemy then his issues stem from how he gives himself into emotion. He wants bad people to suffer for their villainy in a sort of justice seeking sadism.
I think to a certain degree that Gohan recognizes this aspect inside of himself. With the context of his rage bursts and seeing what happened with Goku when he first ascended, Gohan likely feared losing control of his power and endangering those around him.
And that's kinda what ends up happening, he lets go of his inhibitions to unlock his power and ends up losing control of himself.
So no, I don't think Gohan's hesitancy is a sudden pacifism. I kinda blame TFS/DBZ Abridged for popularizing this notion.
I can understand Gohan being scared of what could happen but then why would he even accept his father's offer to fight Cell in the first place then? He could have easily said "no, this is your fight"... idk, it just seemed like an odd plot contrivance imo and felt like Gohan's entire character was changed to have him be unable or unwilling to overcome his fear to fight for what's right.
Well because Gohan recognizes how strong Cell is and also understands the depth of his and his father's strength. After all, Goku in his tired state couldn't take on a Cell Jr which should be some degree weaker than Cell even prior to being given the Senzu.
Additionally something I didn't note in my first message is that Gohan is afraid and confused. He really does want to save his friends and father, but he just doesn't know how to tap into the strength that Goku sees in him (which I attribute to Gohan being worried about losing himself in his rage).
[This post does a better job exploring it than I would say I've done.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/bhvh2f/was_gohan_a_pacifist_in_the_cell_games_analysis)
I see the guys point but I disagree... while I don't know if Gohan is aware of all the people Cell killed to acquire his current power at the time, he knows that Cell attempted to kill Piccolo, Trunks and Vegeta and would have if not for the built in desire to fight Goku.
Gohan still felt out of character. He's a smart kid, he had no reason to believe Cell would be talked down and even AFTER Cell showed he was more than into angering Gohan, Gohan still fought defensively instead of going for the win...
> Ooh this is actually something I thought about. So what is Gohan's fatal flaw in these sorts of fights usually? If he isn't just right out weaker than his enemy then his issues stem from how he gives himself into emotion. He wants bad people to suffer for their villainy in a sort of justice seeking sadism.
Explains him turning into a superhero. Dude has a major justice boner.
Well the thing is there is a difference between fighting to protect one’s friends and those who you love and a difference in fighting for the sake of fighting.
Yes Gohan was willing to fight Vegeta, Freiza and the androids but it was because it was out of need not a want. In same way Solider goes off to the battle to fight to defend their homeland while a warrior goes to battle for the sake of glory.
And not only that but Gohan as a child has never killed anyone before and naturally is afraid of what would happen to him if he does so and when the later did gain the will to kill…part of his own innocence died.
I absolutely agree. His reluctance to fight really came out of nowhere. I get that he was scared in Saiyan Saga, but he was a newbie and much younger. Dude was in the cage with Freeza just an arc ago.
I think it’s less he wants to be a pacifist and more that he doesn’t like fighting. Gohan is a smart character, and I think he sees what being a fighter can do to someone, making you so focused on it that you neglect other important things (Goku) or become so obsessed with it that you’re willing to do whatever it takes to be the best (Vegeta). The thought scares him, he hates the thought of becoming so powerful that he becomes something else, which is exactly what happens when he goes SSJ2, he becomes so engrossed with how powerful he is that he doesn’t finish cell off and let’s him almost destroy the world And it doesn’t come out of nowhere either. As early as the Sayian saga, we clearly see how scared he is of fighting Raditz, even though he dealt some good damage to Raditz. He isn’t a pacifist, he’s a scared boy who doesn’t want to lose himself.
I get that Gohan doesn't want to be like Goku or Vegeta but after Raditz and Nappa he still stepped up to protect his friends/family up until Cell. Doesn't really vibe with me that he decides to not do that when his Dad all but says that Gohan is their only hope... idk, it just seems like Gohan's fear comes out of nowhere in that specific moment.
Maybe if Goku had told him ahead of time that he was earth's only hope, but Goku just kinda sprung it on him in the middle of the fight when he assumed Goku would take care of everything.
Yeah, Goku could have planned it better but that doesn't change how Gohan acted during the entire fight itself.
Most of this is headcanon
I'll say what nobody else is going to say then... Gohan wasn't written out of character, he was starting to *gain* a character. Toriyama, up until this point, honestly hadn't characterized Gohan very much. That was the first point, despite him existing for two whole arcs before, where he started to really give him some unique, defining traits beyond "generic child". Gohan was a replacement for Goku as the child character to appeal to the younger audience. Contrary to what people will tell you, in Dragon Ball, Goku actually had a lot of complex character to him, and grew as a person as he got older. Sure, compared to the average Shonen protagonist, he might be a big generic. But, Shonen protagonists aren't exactly relatable, they have a lot of qualities about them that kids can't realistically emulate. But Gohan? Gohan had no qualities that a kid couldn't emulate. He was a stereotypical nervous good boy in over his head, and other than that was totally bland in every way. This allowed the young readers to project onto him. And, when Gohan got angry, he became super strong and badass. This made the readers that projected onto him feel cool and special, as if they were strong and badass too. That's why Gohan is such a popular, overly-worshipped character in modern DB, in the western fandom; they all started with DBZ, not DB, and have nostalgia for kid Gohan, who they projected their own power fantasies onto. But eventually, Toriyama gave Gohan more unique qualities, and fans got angry, because they couldn't project anymore. That's why so many people hate Great Saiyaman, despite that form of Gohan being the objectively most unique incarnation: they couldn't relate to him anymore and live their vicarious power fantasy. So yeah, pacifist Gohan was Toriyama trying to find his footing in giving Gohan a personality beyond just "child" It just took him until the Buu Saga to really find it.
>So yeah, pacifist Gohan was Toriyama trying to find his footing in giving Gohan a personality beyond just "child" It just took him until the Buu Saga to really find it. I don't mind this if the "pacifist" Gohan had some on-screen build up but it felt like it came out of nowhere. I also, loved the Great Saiyaman arc for Gohan. It was hilarious and actually made him feel unique in the world he lived/lives in... shame so many people just want "get angry and punch" from him :\\
Like I said, they want it because they're nostalgic for the time when they could pretend that Gohan was them, even subconsciously. The whole "Gohan hype, Goku terrible" stuff is a western thing, purely because they started on DBZ, since it got localized first. In Japan, they started with the original DB, so everyone over there loves Goku. And yeah, pacifist Gohan did come out of nowhere, but that's also what I'm saying. Toriyama is notorious for writing by the absolute seat of his pants to an extreme degree. He's admitted he doesn't even plan a single chapter ahead sometimes. He probably realized that he had to set up Gohan as the new protagonist, so started giving him actual character with no build-up.
>I don't mind this if the "pacifist" Gohan had some on-screen build up but it felt like it came out of nowhere. i think that's what the commenter was getting at. you didnt feel anything, you just noticed what literally was happening - he got characterization out of no where. arguably because toriyama realized he had no character up to that point. he needed some kind of arc, at least we're asserting this is probably what toriyama was thinking. it was never going to be done gracefully because it was thought of later on. like a lot of stuff in dragon ball honestly.
Did you even read their comment before replying?
He wasn’t a pacifist. He called the fight pointless because he realized Goku’s plan and thought it wouldn’t work because as he says “I don’t like to fight like dad does”.
While it may be true that Gohan doesn't like to fight like Goku, he was still the only one capable of beating Cell at the time... makes little sense to me that Gohan wouldn't at least try to fight to stop Cell from, you know, destroying the planet if he wins...
> he was still the only one capable of beating Cell at the time... Gohan doesn't believe that's true. Would you have believed you could be stronger than your dad at 10 years old? Imagine if your dad was the guy who beat Frieza, the monster that basically taught you true fear when you were a little younger. Gohan watched Frieza kill Krillin, too.
He does, gohan says himself says that he knows why goku sent him out to fight https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1025794759274532917/1087065790525734932/IMG_4224.jpg
Of course he knows it intellectually, but he doesn't believe it.
Fair point but Gohan felt that Goku AND Cell were holding back because, as Goku pointed out, he was comparing them to himself. He may not have believed he was stronger but Gohan never even tried to fight back against Cell until 16 was destroyed.
He literally does fight Cell though. I don’t get the complaint.
Not until 16 is destroyed... he spends the entire "fight" before then just dodging or blocking because he doesn't want to fight Cell. THAT'S the complaint. This is not the same kid who faced down Vegeta twice and was willing to throw hands with Frieza (who's strength eclipsed his dozens of times over but when he fights Cell (who he's relatively equal to in power) he clams up and doesn't want to fight... makes it seem like he's either a pacifist or considers Cell too weak to fight until he (Gohan) snaps.
He kicks Cell in the head in the head prior to 16 being destroyed and attempts to attack again. Gohan was just getting his ass kicked because Cell was strong. He wasn’t holding back because he didn’t wanna fight. He was just losing.
Their fight starts in chapter 405. Gohan dodges for a sec until Cell uses his "full speed" and sends him flying into a mountain. Gohan walks out relatively unharmed and says he doesn't want to fight but he knows why Goku wanted him too. He kicks him once in chapter 406 but then spends the rest of the chapter dodging Cell's attacks while Cell tries to get him angry. Chapter ends with Cell going after Goku and friends Chapter 407 the Cell Jrs are born - Gohan tries to lunge at Cell but gets knocked back Chapter 408 Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 At no point was Cell's power overwhelming Gohan to any extreme's. Had Gohan been serious about fighting he could have done much better and possibly won withot ssj2 or even managed to access it without losing himself to anger and sadness
Finally someone says it! Its one of the reasons why I believe dbz started going down hill after the frieza arc. People would be complaining that super ruined dragon ball when half their complaints originate from dbz post frieza saga
I think it was more like Toriyama tried to add more to Gohan's character it just didn't work. In theory you could retroactively justify that he doesn't enjoy fighting or doesn't really want to. That doesn't mean you should though I don't think he really knew what to do with him
he was compassionate, and with that compassion came anger, but because he was compassionate he was also scared to let his anger out, he would fight if he had to, or if he got pissed and lost control, but its not the same to consciously release yourself from your inhibitions like that, and even when the cell jrs came out he knew that he had to get angry to unlock his true power, but he was holding himself back mentally, until 16’s blood was basically on his hands, that’s why when he does let it out he gets cocky, because it’s the first time he’s been able to fight without his morals to some degree this is also one of the reasons i love dbza, because tfs had the same interpretation that i did
Ooh this is actually something I thought about. So what is Gohan's fatal flaw in these sorts of fights usually? If he isn't just right out weaker than his enemy then his issues stem from how he gives himself into emotion. He wants bad people to suffer for their villainy in a sort of justice seeking sadism. I think to a certain degree that Gohan recognizes this aspect inside of himself. With the context of his rage bursts and seeing what happened with Goku when he first ascended, Gohan likely feared losing control of his power and endangering those around him. And that's kinda what ends up happening, he lets go of his inhibitions to unlock his power and ends up losing control of himself. So no, I don't think Gohan's hesitancy is a sudden pacifism. I kinda blame TFS/DBZ Abridged for popularizing this notion.
I can understand Gohan being scared of what could happen but then why would he even accept his father's offer to fight Cell in the first place then? He could have easily said "no, this is your fight"... idk, it just seemed like an odd plot contrivance imo and felt like Gohan's entire character was changed to have him be unable or unwilling to overcome his fear to fight for what's right.
Well because Gohan recognizes how strong Cell is and also understands the depth of his and his father's strength. After all, Goku in his tired state couldn't take on a Cell Jr which should be some degree weaker than Cell even prior to being given the Senzu. Additionally something I didn't note in my first message is that Gohan is afraid and confused. He really does want to save his friends and father, but he just doesn't know how to tap into the strength that Goku sees in him (which I attribute to Gohan being worried about losing himself in his rage).
[This post does a better job exploring it than I would say I've done.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/bhvh2f/was_gohan_a_pacifist_in_the_cell_games_analysis)
I see the guys point but I disagree... while I don't know if Gohan is aware of all the people Cell killed to acquire his current power at the time, he knows that Cell attempted to kill Piccolo, Trunks and Vegeta and would have if not for the built in desire to fight Goku. Gohan still felt out of character. He's a smart kid, he had no reason to believe Cell would be talked down and even AFTER Cell showed he was more than into angering Gohan, Gohan still fought defensively instead of going for the win...
>. I kinda blame TFS/DBZ Abridged for popularizing this notion. Can't really blame them when that notion was already popular to begin with.
> Ooh this is actually something I thought about. So what is Gohan's fatal flaw in these sorts of fights usually? If he isn't just right out weaker than his enemy then his issues stem from how he gives himself into emotion. He wants bad people to suffer for their villainy in a sort of justice seeking sadism. Explains him turning into a superhero. Dude has a major justice boner.
Well the thing is there is a difference between fighting to protect one’s friends and those who you love and a difference in fighting for the sake of fighting. Yes Gohan was willing to fight Vegeta, Freiza and the androids but it was because it was out of need not a want. In same way Solider goes off to the battle to fight to defend their homeland while a warrior goes to battle for the sake of glory. And not only that but Gohan as a child has never killed anyone before and naturally is afraid of what would happen to him if he does so and when the later did gain the will to kill…part of his own innocence died.
i always tought that he was just not ready to actually kill someone could be wrong tho