By - Konradleijon
This may not be a widely held opinion but I always thought RWBY could have done better to gradually explore the role and history of hunters and other components of their science-fantasy world like the effects of human resources being compressed into the kingdoms,and how isolation affects the communities outside the borders.
Or what the criminal underground in Vale actually does,what it wants and how it gets it. Or the implications of being able to manufacture Aura and put it in robots.
And then gradually delve into the actual history of the world,origins of Grimm and things like that.
Instead it escalated very rapidly to "ACTUALLY EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED SO FAR WAS TWO GOD BROTHERS AND TWO IMMORTALS FIGHTING OVER THE FATE OF THE WORLD".
RWBY had the same problem with MHA , the school stuff ended too early , MHA did went back to it a little school stuff again but it wasn't the same
I watched RWBY when I was a kid and even I knew that blowing up the school was a bad idea. It'd be like if Hogwarts just blew up halfway through the 2nd movie and then there was a time skip.
true , but there is a certain reviosionism over RWBY.
The thing with it is that early seasons lacked the resources of later seasons....I mean , Season 1 had episodes around 6-12 min , meaning that , even if they remain the same amount of episodes , but they end up as 24min , it would end up 2x to 3x more content.
Accentuating my point even further that they didn't spend enough time at the school, Seasons 1 and Season 2 were so short in length already not to mention the "wasted" arc of Jaune's bullying
it was short in lenght because RoosterTeeth was not that big back then. I don't disagree with you that the characters lacks time at the school , which they are rectfying with Ice Queendom and the novels.
But all of that is a result of lack of resources during that time , which is blatantly showed as , the more success RWBY gains , the more lenghtly were the episodes , or how the civilians appears properly rather than been shadowed , or normal non-combat movements of the characters and objects are smooth....
As much as I hate to admit it, J.K. Rowling had the right idea to set Harry Potter in a seven-year long boarding school.
Harry Potter has almost the opposite problem I feel like, it spends so much of its time at the school being about school hijinks with the occasional mystery. The pivot into gritty war story and hunting dark artefacts comes in right at the very end of the series and it's a bit too sudden.
I also feel like during the fall of bacon RWBY made the mistake of burning down most of the things and characters that were likeable in the early seasons with no real plan for how to fill the void they left behind. IMO the season after it feels very hollow, which could be interesting and conceptually could tie in well with the theme of grief, but instead the show becomes a bit dull.
I have always maintained that RWBY's initial premise that the world is inhabited by monsters that are attracted/feed on powerful emotions is really fascinating, and there flashes in the pan of the world considering how that would affect things like the art and culture suppression it's mentioned a war was fought over.
But as the show goes on it really puts no thought into that and treats grimm like generic anime monsters (which they kinda are but at least they used to have a gimmick), and there has never been much world building on how people navigate dealing with their emotion detection in particular.
Has always been a big disappointment for me personally in the series. There's literally a plot point in later seasons of people rioting and attracting werewolves and I just think, "Has no one put some thought into how rioting might not be a very good option in this universe?" I get emotions are high but if I said a cuss word and a werewolf jumped me I feel like I would make an effort to control my temper more.
They could've done this with Ironwood if they wanted to make him a dictator so badly. He runs an oppressive regime where strong emotions are forbidden for the Greater Good, team RWBY beat him up and teach him to defeat Grimm with the power of friendship/love or some shit, i don't know, anything would've been better than what we got.
Also, shouldn't Ren be way more important than he is now? He can't cover a whole city or anything, but his power is the best Grimm protection you could get. He should be as popular as Pyrrha.
At this point, I feel it is absolutely ending with Team RWBY defeating a universe-god like it's the true ending of a JRPG.
I came into this thread curious to see how long I'd have to scroll to find RWBY. I'm somewhat impressed its the top reply, because God *damn* do I agree, even if others might not.
The worst part is that everything you said was actually done in a spin off mini series. Granted it doesn’t go as in depth as you might wish, it’s a bunch of five minute word vomit exposition narrated by Qrow.
The hobbit movies
Why couldn’t they be a nice two movie duoalgoy without trying to ape LOTR.
Because they booted Del Toro. I will never not lament the Del Toro version.
“The Hobbits escaped via barrels”
“TEN MINUTES OF GO PRO AND CGI AND GREEN SCREEN AS EVERYONE FIGHTS EVERYONE LESGOOOOOOOOOOOO!”
The Battle of Five Armies.
3 pages into 2 hours.
I think this was pretty common in the mid-2000s. My theory is that it was caused by everyone trying to ape the success of the LOTR movies.
The Matrix sequels definitely suffered from a need to be as grandiose as possible. The first movie has a ton of hero’s journey elements, and it probably helped the movie achieve its broad appeal. Then the sequels leaned all the way into that, to the point where Neo rejecting his robo-prophet ordained messianic destiny results in him being even more of a messiah.
The Chronicles of Narnia adaptation definitely wanted to be Lord of the Rings so, so badly
And in the case of Narnia, they only covered like, 3 books total didn’t they?
Coz they're the only ones they could make movies out of without boring the "main audience". There are what, 7 stories right? In-universe chronological order:
- Some dude invents interdimensional teleport magic rings somehow, stupid kids abuse his invention, waste a lot of fucking time almost going insane/eternally SUPER mind-stunned because the between-worlds isn't a sane place to be, and after multiple dimension hopping bring humans (as well as the Dying World Charn's queen, the White Witch Jadis from the movie) to a black empty world, in which they witness Catholic god disguised as a lion create the world (and the lamppost) biblical style while the Witch is shivering in her timbs.
- The first movie of course
- Some kids and horses living south of Narnia want to run away from the evil Ara... Calormen (completely different tm) and make it to Europe after a long desert chase and show themselves to be virtuous enough for the GOOD AND WHOLESOME kings and queens to help them live their life
- Second Movie
- Third movie
- the kid from last movie and a friend of his go on some wildly boring adventure to find Caspian's son, almost dying 12 times -because the land and the people are evil- to bring him back then they find him by pure luck and are told "well done my childre, you found the prince you will go to heaven when you die now, off you go to the real world now"
- Get this, a random talking monkey tries to become king/gain monopoly over the woods in his area by disguising a random mule as Aslan, forcing everyone to obey him. He basically turns it into a lumber operation he sells to the Ara.. The Calormens, despite the fact those trees aren't meant to be destroyed, and when the prince from the previous story shows up to confront him about his shittery, he is tied to get "his judgment". The previous kids warp to Narnia using the first story's interdimensioal teleport magic rings to save him. Following that is people questioning Aslan's intentions and shit, while the monkey and some Calormen actually summoned the Calormen evil deity and it's coming right the fuck now and decides to hide in the stable they hid "Aslan" in (before the donkey fucked off). During this time the Calormen somehow took control of Narnia's capital JUST LIKE THAT. The monkey and his posse sacrifice everyone they can to the evil god hiding in the stable during the "Last battle of Narnia" (fought over capitalism dollars let me remind you), and when hope is truly lost... SYKE ASLAN WAS ALWAYS THERE. Everyone who believed in him is fine forever and ever and everyone else who cares they die lmao reset the world let's go to perfect Narnia aka heaven the end. And the kids do make it to heaven >!Because they died IRL, and Susan didn't because her having sex made her forget about Narnia hahaha not kidding!<
jason aaron's avengers,
every arc introduces an "anti-avengers team" y'know so everyone gets their own fight, but it's so much
you get the atlanteans, the winter guard, the squadron supreme, vampires, mephisto's from across the mutliverse, the mashups, the multiversal masters of evil. like the thing is only 60 issues.
the only arcs that didn't were the moon knight and johnny blaze ones and that just involved them kicking the shit out of the avengers so they could lose to robbie or blackpanther.
the run starts with the avengers fighting and beating like 3 or 4 super celestials.
y'know those big fellas from the eternals movie.
to put it in perspective the x-men, avengers and eternals just had a crossover arc called judgement day where they are all incapable of beating one shitty half made one.
those things are like galactus tier, which means less every time the lad appears.
and then you get avengers forever where every character is a mashup again, like a thing made out of infinity stones or thor is iron fist, and everything is just titles.
they call them x the y, the z, the a to the b to the c. literally every character is danearys,
even the art is annoying in how much is happening in every frame,
it's weird as i like his thor and ghost rider, and by all accounts his punisher seems pretty cool, but man his avengers is rough.
edit: forgot the bc avengers as another team
I remember trying to get out of my X-men bubble and read some of the other stuff only to get the most bland "Death of magic" villain in Dr.Strange. Oh yes science man hate magic I am deeply invested.. Have you thought about the implications of earth losing magic for like a week? Like it seems painfully isolated event.. Feels more like it would cascade into an unyielding nightmare of problems.
Also it wasn't even mentioned by any magic user outside of Aaron's Strange run. So maybe there was no point in going that hard. Just have Strange fight a science man? What do I know!
never read his strange, take it that he's more of a coin toss than i thought?
Arts good. Love the interactions with Wong and a new assistance. I'd say it gave me a good introduction to him as a character but the villain is a blank void of depth or world building.
I feel like every single World of Warcraft expansion is about how this time the world is really gonna end for realsies guys
We literally beat Satan, and then Blizzard went "You fools, now you have to fight Mega-Satan!". I'm betting at most 3 expansions (including Dragonflight) till we are introduced to "Mega-Ultra-Satan".
Not only that, but:
"Whew, with the combined strength of the Alliance and Horde we managed to stop End of the World 19. This is an unbreakable friendship forged in the fires of adversity. Maybe now we can stop fighting for like, a couple days."
*two hours later*
"deres shiny rocks over here. WAAAAAAAAAAGGHH"
"CHAMPION, YOU MUST KICK THE SHIT OUT OF THESE RABBITS TO GET DAE AZEERIATE TO HEAL THE WOOONDS"
Would Woolie get into WOW if we told him that race wars are a fundamental part of its game design?
And then they go
"Oh but did you know about Ultra satan? He was the one controlling mega satan and satan"
"The mega satan and satan who were fighting each other?"
"Why did he made his forces fight each other?"
"........Did you hear about Super mega ultra satan arcade edition?"
"Oh come on"
There is always some stupid redemption story tied into one of baddies because one of the writers loves redemption stories.
Next time we'll fight Mega-Ultra-Über-Satan
You joke but the Jailer is a thing, and guess what he was training everyone for an even more powerful foe
The big issue is that the massive cosmic threat that spans the entire series was conclusively defeated in Legion, and since then the game has struggled to produce a credible threat, now every villainous chump is either secretly an unstoppable super god or needs some contrived explanation as to why they're not instantly smote by the army of god-like heroes that's formed over the years.
But it was all to stop an even bigger threat!
"YOU FOOLS, I WAS HOLDING THEM BACK!"
I’ve only played a few hours but the new expansion Dragonflight is very refreshing in that it’s not an immediate world ending threat, you’re just in a new place exploring and dealing with a local issue that could sprial if not dealt with quickly
Supernatural also follows this format. All you need to know is that in season 5 they beat the devil.
And there are like... 7 or 8 more season after that.
The panda one tried to chill things out and everyone got pissed, so afterwards they went right back to raising the stakes every time
Funnily enough, I was talking to a friend about Steven Universe and this exact point came up.
The first few episodes involve Steven chasing off a couple aliens and some corrupted gems in his own particular way. Sure, there's a bit of danger, but stakes are overall low, very much on the local scale.
Within that same season we escalate to the primary threat being a fascist empire of gems, led by Blue and Yellow Diamond among others not mentioned, who are individually powerful enough that the Crystal Gems try not only to avoid engagement but avoid their notice entirely.
We later get it confirmed (it was present via subtext) that the gem empire has killed entire worlds for the purpose of gem reproduction, and that Kindergartens, eerie areas home to gem birthing grounds, are so stripped that they will *never* support life.
Additionally, Earth is home to a gem superweapon called the Cluster, a twisted composite entity that *will* destroy the planet eventually, and there's very little that can be done to stop it.
This gem empire, as we interact with it more, is gradually revealed to be a *galactic* level threat, and furthermore that every corrupted gem on earth >!are the remnants of Rose Quartz's army and that of the Diamonds, driven to eternal madness by an ability the Diamonds can just kinda use whenever they want.!<
During all this, we also get cute slice of life episodes during which one of the Beach City side characters runs for mayor, or another where two other side characters go on a date, or where the Gems work on... some incredibly minor local problem or Steven helps someone put on a concert.
Despite the stakes reaching absolutely *crushing* heights, the tone of the show never really seems to acknowledge it, and that's before mentioning that each of these issues are resolved pretty anticlimactically.
Compare it to something like the Owl House, where the stakes also get pretty high, but its treated with appropriate gravity while still allowing for downtime and interpersonal drama without it feeling like pointless filler.
Yes Steven Universe wouldn’t have hugely benefited from much more smaller stakes.
Instead of the whole these people are so outlandishly evil.
Steven Universe suffers because it wants to be fluffy slice of life and epic space opera at the same time and both ideas smother each other.
The cutesy, easygoing, small scale stuff keeps interrupting or undermining the attempts to mature and focus on the bigger plot and worldbuilding, and the big sci fi epic in the background makes the endless slow-paced “cute gems do cute things” character episodes feel like massive wastes of time and space. And anytime the show seems like it’s going to make itself pick a side, it chickens out and over corrects hard back into its uncomfortable middle ground; see, for instance, how both times it kills off a character it *instantly* brings them back to life.
A crew of people had a really phenomenal idea for a thematically powerful queer space opera story by accident but their skill set was exclusively geared for soap operas.
Yes I had someone say that the Gempire are a Dalek level allegory entirely by mistake!
Halo 4 would be a way better realized story if it focused on Chief's relationship with Cortana. I remember that to this day, while I don't even remember the villain's name
The Didact, a character whose backstory is explained in a novel I didn't read and whose resolution is explained in a comic book I didn't read.
As a casual player who did not deep dive the lore before playing 4, when the Didact shows up everyone points at him and refers to him by name as though you are expected to know what his deal is. It's bizarre.
"You know. Kai Leng? The super awesome superassassin who's the most badass superassassin in the galaxy?"
Say it with me, folks!
Mailine entries should never include primary plot points that rely on spin-offs, DLC or supplementary material!
And who is two different guys because he was characterized two ways so completely different that reconciling them into one dude was stupider than a new guy inheriting the first's personality and merging it woth his own, but the original was also still around, but sealed away, too.
This is an example where fans working on a new game in a series is a big problem. 343 had this issue where they wanted to focus on the lore so fucking bad, but couldn’t think of good ways to incorporate it into the story. Bungie deliberately gave very little info on the forerunners because it wasn’t really that important, and having very little info on them made them more interesting and mysterious as a result. It’s the reason *why* you want to know more about them.
343 took over the series and now we know every single little fucking detail about their entire society because they were lore nerds and wanted to focus on lore because that’s what they used to like about the series. They thought “People like the lore? Do more lore. People like Chief and Cortana? Do more Chief and Cortana.” without thinking about *why* those things were so beloved in the Bungie games.
And the Chief Cortana stuff we saw was great, especially how protective Chief was of her
unfortunately they fucked that up in halo 5 but I largely agree, the didact is okay at best in the story, but the real focus is cortana and chief in that game.
I feel like most Shonen turn into this over time
Fear for one piece.
I mean it’s been 20 years.
We can go full fight the moon now.
The moon has even been set up as a plot point by the cover stories ages ago!
I mostly agree, Oda has kept the wheels on this story for so long. But on the other hand, One Piece hasn’t done the thing yet where the main character irreversibly changes the paradigm of the world they inhabit. It’s getting close though, we’ll see what happens.
I think One Piece has earned it by this point. The Straw Hats have gone from fighting BigFishInSmallPond nobodies like Buggy and Arlong to dealing with straight up Pirate God Overlords, like Kaidou and Buggy.
I feel like the series will have earned it by that point, and won't linger long afterwards. IMO you can kill god, but he better be the final boss.
Mass Effect. As Pat has said before, the best parts of those games are literally everything outside of the main plot. Dicking around in space and just shooting the shit with Aliens is VASTLY more interesting and fun than having to deal with some dramatic extinction level threat.
I was way more engrossed reading codex entries about Legion being a gamer god or Grunt ordering action figures off of Space Ebay than seeing or hearing ANYTHING to do with the Reapers
Please explain the action figures thing that sounds adorable
Grunt's Shadow Broker Dossier in ME2 shows that he bought a Captain Cosmic Krogan Battle Master action figure on the Extranet, with real "Smash your enemies!" action.
Or how he looked up human generals of history before giving up and looking up ***DINOSAURS***
I bet he saw the fucking T-Rex and got hype.
I bet grunt argues a ton on forums insisting dinosaurs have scales cause he might believe feathers are weak.
I disagree... but I also kinda agree. I think the reapers shit is very cool and I love the overall plot of ME but the little "go here do this" quests are also really good. Especially when there's small resolutions and you get to see characters involved in the quest sometime after you complete it.
Yeah, I’m kinda in the same boat. I really like the actual reaper plot but the side shit/character interactions/ lore take the front seat. I think 1 and 2 do it best, where the existential threat is looming but intangible (for the most part). I think the weakest aspect of 3, sans the ending, is that BioWare went for an all out war plot line. I think the plot could have benefited from the reapers being right at your door step for the first two acts, with the galactic readiness being a prep for the actual invasion. Then act 3 is where shit actually pops off
the best parts of andromeda are when you are being a space ranger in the mid-game where you just drive to each point of interest and solve the problems there and move on.
Idk man, I agree the character stuff and side stuff is the best part but I wouldn't be playing the game if that's all it was personally.
Maybe it didn't have to be as big as The Reapers, that I agree. They could've went with like a widespread corruption/Galactic Illuminati plot that would've hit alot of the same type of beats for Shepard but wouldn't be like an omnicidal thread.
This is the point Pat made too, you don't need to have the stakes of the main plot be the end of the galaxy. Something like a heist or uncovering a conspiracy like you suggest or even the Collectors plot without the reapers. But because it's bioware of course they don't know how to write it any other way.
See you say that and I agree with you, but then Sovereign says something like **”REAPER. A LABEL GIVEN BY THE PROTHEANS TO GIVE VOICE TO THEIR DESTRUCTION”** or **”YOU EXIST BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT, AND YOU WILL END BECAUSE WE DEMAND IT”** and I have to fight you on it.
A lot of DnD 5e recent adventures. The biggest example being Tomb of annihilation which has world wide stakes from the start. The starting level is 1. Likewise the spelljammer adventure has the PCs take on a powerful empire and winning, the last part being called "saviours of the multiverse". What level does it end at? 8.
It reminds me of Pathfinder whose official Adventure Paths start with a town or city wide level problem and have it slowly escalate from there
RATS IN THE BASEMENT
RATS IN THE BASEMENT
RATS IN THE BASEMENT
RATS IN THE BASEMENT
RATS IN THE BASEMENT
Good thing they can’t swim /s
I don't really have an example that hasn't already been mentioned here, but boy do I love some good smaller-stake stories. I love epic scale fantasy also, but I feel like small-scale stories are under-represented these days. Here are some of my favorites:
Dragon Age 2: Hey go become a big shot in your local town
Disco Elysium: Hey go solve this local murder case
Yakuza (any of em): Just go stop some corruption in your town
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: Set in Game of Thrones Land but follows a single night and his companion and each novella focuses on just one event. No world-branching / pov hopping.
The Witcher 1: Deal with some local racists and do odd jobs around this town.
Disco Elysium spoilers: >!I like how it reveals that there is a legitimate apocalypse slowly engulfing the world, but it's also completely irrelevant, and then the game has the balls to end on such a huge anti-climax. The killer is just sitting there, and this isn't some huge case that will redeem Harry. Other than meeting Kim (and maybe Cuno?) this is just another case.!<
It really exemplifies that you don't need a big story to have a big world. You just need depth and an abundance of little details
>!this isn't some huge case that will redeem Harry ... apparently your playthrough was pretty different to mine. Like, Harry was a washout, and pretty much ready to kill himself. He turned himself around entirely due to that case, and met Kim, who is best boy and will be coming to work with him!<
>!I dunno, I did all the goody goody stuff. Befriended Kim, stayed away from drugs, tried to avoid bad behavior, and the ending was good. I just had a vibe of "this COULD be a sign of better times, but I don't feel so sure" rather than it feeling like Harry was going to get better now. Maybe it just says something about me.!<
its interesting where it's implied this entire scenario has happened before, it's kinda left up to interpretation
Yeah, that's a good way to describe it. A feeling that it had happened before.
>!But, depending on your actions, Kim actually, legitimately becomes close to Harry, so that's good for him.!<
Apparently Dunk and Egg is being adapted into an animated series if I read the release correctly into the "Hedge Knight". It has a big knight and a kid in a straw hat so that should be enough to ensure that. I also really loved the small scale land wars of those books.
Star Wars sequel trilogy and its fleet of Death Stars in the middle of nowhere
If you want to have an "Avengers, assemble!" Endgame moment, you need to actually establish the other Avengers or we have no reason to care. TLJ already put out the idea that people were too afraid or didn't care enough to help. You need to respect that if you're going to do IX, so just fucking write within your limits and limit the final conflict to what happens on the ground. If you *really* want a final battle, have some kind of fleet and some ground defences so the Resistance needs to create a breach for Rey to get in. Then you can still have your former stormtroopers as cavalry concept, and a pitched space battle, but don't have all those fucking randos show up. (Except Wedge. Yes, bring in Wedge.)
Nah, [Dark Empire take 2: Electric Boogaloo go brrrrr.](https://youtu.be/1R65kOQd9n0)
Netflix's Umbrella Academy has such interesting characters but they keep making them take a backseat to a big dumb doomsday plot every season and it just feels like it's failing to capitalize on its own potential.
Doom eternal and then the ancient gods especially just keeps upping the scale until it is a no nonsensical soup of "woah epic dude"
Finished recently Doom 2016 and by happenstance I got spoiled plot points from Doom Eternal and its DLC and for the life of me I can't fucking connect how it went there out of the blue. It reads like fanfiction based on Doom instead of Doom.
It literally doesn't make sense
The Dark lord can create the universe but not make some species immortal, fucking stupid.
Lmao I hadn't even thought of that, that's the dumbest thing ever, his story almost works until he has infinite power. The mf turned himself evil lol.
The opening of Doom Eternal is so wildly different to where 2016 leaves off that it feels like you've accidentally skipped to the third game in a trilogy. I had to double check there wasn't a canon comic or something I'd missed that bridged the gap.
I'm really glad that it seems like a large amount of people feel the same way as me about 2016 and eternal. Doom 2016 is one of my favourite FPS ever, but the moment I saw Eternal gameplay something felt off and when I actually got hands on that was confirmed to me. The gameplay feels less flexible and the lore is too much: I never even bothered finishing it.
I liked the vibe of Doom 2016 more than eternal by a long shot. I know "subtlety" probably isn't the first thing that comes to mind when people think of these games but 2016 knew when to be over the top and when to just silently gesture tongue-in-cheek at something and I think of it all the more fondly because of it.
2016 was an absolute slam dunk home run, eternal has a lot of good bits especially improved exploration but I like 2016 much more
2016 had Character, Eternal is just loaded with... my brain defaults to saying "Reddit" but idk how else to call the shelf of Funkos, every type of Doom Reference crammed into the base, type of shit.
Look he has a gaming computer! Epic wholesome big changes 100
"Awww thats cute, a rabbit cage..."
It's trying so, so hard to look cool it just stops being cool. "Look, we remember this too!" Like. For fucks sake I know about Tei Tenga! Can we move on and make something NEW? Apparently not because the story is just 2016 but worse!
'membah doom 2?
And it runs Doom!
(IIRC, it literally just runs a WAD file in the game's folder. So you can run any mod through it as well)
I honestly think it's a parody with how batshit insane it gets. There is no way these writers were taking all this so seriously
Though I do love it anyway bc it still has so much charm to it.
If it was actually funny or something I could see it working but it's either tonal whiplash to the extreme or maybe they just actually fucking hate 2016 for some reason lol
*"Man, it's not comic booky enough"* - whoever wrote Eternal, looking at Doom 2016
I've completely discarded Eternal as bad fan fiction that completely misses every good facet of DOOM 2016 at this point.
I'm still mad about the change of tone and direction.
Yeah it took a weirdly mature and interesting version of doom and turned it into a shitty Saturday morning cartoon. And not one of the actually good ones either.
It's been interesting to see how popular consensus about Eternal has shifted over the years. It went from "gameplay so much better than 2016 and so much faster paced, its deffo better" by most people, to now "yeah no actually 2016 did like, everything else better and that holds up more in the long run."
Eternal definitely is smoother, but yeah I vastly prefer 2016, I've replayed it a few times and I don't know if I'll ever feel the need to go through eternal again
Doom Guy 2016 could not have gived the slightest fuck about the plot, which kept what plot there was tight, Doom Eternal could've used that Doom Guy.
I would argue Doom Guy *does* care about the plot in 2016: what he doesn't care about are Hayden's excuses and rationalizations for the plot. Any time he has a big moment of rejecting the story, it's over Hayden getting into his rambling about how everything he did was for the good of humanity and totally justified the cost (Doom Guy glancing down at a human corpse in the elevator right before he shatters Hayden's mic is especially pointed).
It's surprisingly subtle, interesting silent characterization. But everyone, devs included, interpreted it as Doom Guy being a dumb action hero silently screaming "FUCK PLOT, PLAY VIDEO GAME", and ran with that characterization straight into Eternal while simultaneously tripling the amount of actual plot.
Well put. Doom Guy in 2016 was neither dumb nor simply "stupid story, I just wanna rip & tear!", in fact *because* he cared about what was going on he was so very angry and focused.
His Rip and Tear was honestly with purpose, even if there were moments of him goofing off like brofisting the tiny not funko of himself.
Not that he didn't have it in Eternal, but something about it felt different in that game.
It's inconsistent too, 2016 doom guy takes a copy of Vega because he was a nice lad and didn't do anything wrong. Eternal doom guy just leaves his ass in urdak like bye bitch lol.
2016 pretty much trusts you'll that characterization and action will carry it. I standby that it's incredibly well written and plotted because of how it can get a lot out of those small bits.
It was okay how they handled things in base Eternal, it was more lore and was ridiculous but made sense. They didn't jump the shark until Anciet Gods Part 1, and then Part 2 went entirely off the rails lore wisr.
I wasn't the biggest fan of eternal but I didn't hate it on release or anything. Ancient Gods made me want to throw up.
MHA was 100X more interesting when it actually used its school and teaching setting rather than just ignoring it in favor of world threatening villains with unsatisfying motivations and a protagonist with straight up broken powers
Agree, but this doesn't just apply to MHA, a lot of shounen keep escalate the threat to the point that characters beside the main one became irrelevant as the story process (looking at you Naruto and Bleach). The worst offender however is Shokugeki no Souma where it gone batshit insane in the last arc.
Don’t fucking get me started on food wars
I could write a dissertation on how awful everything after the introduction is Erika’s father is
MHA fucked up by making the world-threatening supervillain the arc enemy of the earlier school setting and the whiny "baaww my childhood was sad" LoL player whom nobody cares about the final boss after everything else around the story was escalated into a full-scale war.
Mha had three kids fight a guy in an alley and it was super fun, meanwhile the All Might vs AFO, while having amazing character moments, was such a lame fight.
I think i have to disagree with you on the latter. The feeling of vigour instilled was much more intense from United States of Smash
Well, that’s not very plus ultra of you
I keep hearing that Star Trek Discovery and Picard do this
Not just save the world. Save the entire galaxy. Every season. Sometimes twice a season. It's exhausting.
STD really has a problem with every season having a galactic level threat when most people watch Trek for the character interactions and one-off plots
Star Trek Picard is so weird and dumb. The first season basically stole the plot of Mass Effect. The second season started with an "epic" galaxy ending event, then went to an alternate timeline, then time travelled to the past to fix the timeline. The Borg had a sing and dance number. Picard suddenly remembered how his mom died while he was in the middle of a gunfight. There was something about a 21st century space flight that should've been a major plot point, but it got like 5 minutes of screen time. And said pilot was of course Picard's ancestor. Then they time travelled back to the first episode and fixed the galaxy ending event. Oh and that all happened because Q was dying.
The great ninja war in naruto just kept upping and upping the stakes. Each of the past leaders was able to hold their own against an army and then we got Madara who was ludacrisly powerful for a single person to the point that he could solo the combined armies of five nations and they still went on further after that.
The fucking WILD thing about the Great Ninja War is that in-universe, it couldn't have been more than a week. Maybe even three days!
Just think of how many power-ups Naruto got during that arc, then remember how fast that's supposed ti be occurring.
Man, following up the annoyingly impenetrable Madara confrontation with >!and then Chakra God shows up out of nowhere and they all have to fight her now!!< sounds like it'd be a bit of sarcastic mockery if it wasn't real.
Even as someone who defends Naruto a lot, I feel this. Stuff like >!Guy going 8th Gates, Edo Hokages, Naruto giving everyone a chakra cloak, Edo Minato using KCM, Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo, etc!< all it gives "Kishi just put this in here for the fans" vibes
I hate that >!Kakashi's Susano'o is my favorite design for them!< since I think the reasoning for it is the dumbest.
At least the Madara copypasta is funny
Doom eternal kind of ended up being a bit too much on the epic side, like the avengers army showing up in the back like avengers endgame in ancient gods should have just been the betrayer coming as extra back up and all you needed
Not a story, but I feel like the band Muse definitely shifted from "we want to make great music" to "we want to make EPIC music" after the first couple of albums and suffered for it.
I never thiught about that and youre absolutely right, and thats something that happens to a lot of bands
Forced epiccness in songs is so tiring, sometimes I just want to hear a song about how someone loves peanuts
Every superhero movie that for some strange reason needs an apocalyptic threat, even if the protagonist is street level that stops pickpockets and common thieves.
I feel like every fantasy webcomic/novel I read ends up with THE GODS being the final enemies. I'm tired of such big leaps - especially when a story starts out more grounded.
Sonic in the 2000s suffered this as things got too big in scale for even Sonic Team to keep up with by Shadow the Hedgehog and ‘06. Add on the fact that Sonic fans at the time hated the very idea of Sonic taking itself seriously and believing Sonic Team should be ashamed for even attempting it after those two games, and you can see why Colors’ story happened.
I've been watching Pariah695's youtube series about Sonic, and he rags on how many games end with you going Super mode to fight a world-ending threat, usually in space. A big part of it is that he just dislikes these fights on a mechanical level, but he also argues on a narrative level that these big finales lost their impact through overuse. I'm not entirely sure if I agree with him, but it's an interesting perspective.
Don't tell him to play Sonic Frontiers then. Even though it's the best Super Sonic content ever
tbf the super sonic levels were always flying in some kind of airspace
like perfect chaos, biolizard, metal sonic, solaris, black doom and dark gaia, time eater are all the 3d ones until frontiers iirc,
solaris i guess is as big as you can go, with it being a time god and all that,
funnily enough pokemon did something similar, peaking in gen 4 then rapidly scaling back what the legendary pokemon were,
we went from air and ocean currents to time and space in no time.
the games where they didn't do that,
colours, forces and lost world are kinda made fun of for there weak finales where you fight the same boss in all 3, as in fully just reskinned with the same laser drag, switch arm laser drag moveset.
i do agree about the mechanical bit though, being invincible is cool, but by tying death to ring count it feels like a chore and the only way a villain can feel scary is if they stop you from moving/stop you reaching them.
iirc perfect dark gaia treated rings like a life bar which felt a bit more normal,
like woolies frontier stream summed up that super sonic is supposed to be the big reward moment where a hype song (usually the main themes instrumental) plays and you get to fly around, but sonic being sonic means that the flying often feels jank.
even frontiers which is praised for it still has those weird moments where you're knocked away then slowly move back into range.
Sonic as a franchise keeps trying to recapture the high that was Doomsday Zone from Sonic 3 & Knuckles
A 3 1/2 game buildup to the hypest final battle. Plus its a chase, so instead of having a big monster/robot you fly around, it has momentum and energy to it
All I want is a game about Chief and Blue Team fighting the Covenant during the height of the war, but no, they gotta keep shoving galaxy ending threats at us as if they're afraid the fans get bored the second the entire universe isn't at stake.
I mean shit post 4 humanity was lookin good and things were kind of on the up and up, but nope, here's a goofy plot outta nowhere that gets dropped and resolved more or less offscreen.
Most of Marvel’s stuff coming out lately, the worst one to come to mind for me is Shang-Chi. Could have been a fun martial arts story of a guy accepting his role as a hero and standing up to his dad. Instead at the end we get a sudden >!giant doomsday portal full of cgi monsters and the final showdown is two dumb cgi dragons smashing against each other for 15 minutes.!<
I will always take every opportunity to say that Shang-Chi and the Mandarin's conflict should've ended with Shang-Chi asking what name that voice was calling the Mandarin because his wife would call him Wenwu and the dragon probably wasn't.
I remember when Spider-Man Homecoming came out and it was so refreshing that the grand finale was just >!Spidey stopping an empty plane full of tech that's being heisted by an arms dealer.!< Didn't need the entire city, or the WORLD at stake, just a simple story of Peter stopping a bad guy with genuine stakes.
Then FFH tries to make it out like >!Mysterio will upset the entire world order by infiltrating the avengers,!< when he really just worked better as a foil for Peter's naivety.
Then NWH goes *even bigger* with a UNIVERSAL danger but somehow managed to make the finale feel personal to Peter's struggle, despite >!taking place on the frickin statue of liberty with doctor strange holding off giant lights in the sky.!<
That whole trilogy is just fascinating to me. I have a lot of issues with it (especially FFH) but it honestly might be my favorite series in the MCU just because of how *human* the conflict feels for Peter in each movie.
I still think its worse off with Moon Knight both because the mental health aspects previously shown were more interesting and MK as a character has always felt better imo as a more ground level character like what the Netflix shows did, as opposed to fighting an Egyptian god and all that
What kills me is where the fuck are all the other mega villains when the apocalypse ones are running around?
I was loving Shang-chi for like maybe 40-55 percent of it.. But the Marvel tropes that wormed in there really bogged down my pretty fun kung fu flick.
The Hobbit movies.
Fantastic Beasts. I wanted it to be a series about seeing cool magical creatures
You and me both buddy. Gotta cram it full of things from the books otherwise how will we care? Can't let the films stand on solid writing.
It's one of my biggest issues with Daniel Craig's run as Bond. None of his movies can "just be a Bond movie." They all have to be mooorrreee. His first two films are "The origin of James Bond!" Then SKYFALL is "The Death of M!" SPECTRE is "The Return of Blofeld WHO IS ALSO BOND'S BROTHER!" And I think it reached a brand new low with NO TIME TO DIE which is all about >!"JAMES BOND FUCKIN DIES."!< It was exhausting and I really hope the next Bond goes back to some levity and having missions JUST be missions. Honestly, I think the current premier Spy Action Film series is MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE, which frankly do this, GHOST PROTOCOL and ROGUE NATION are both just missions with FALLOUT building upon the entire series to make it feel epic and a culmination, because it earned it.
At the bare minimum they should have had one normal James Bond adventure between "James becomes the Bond we all know" and "James struggles with being an antiquated relic."
Mass Effect, for sure. They didn't need the Reapers at all to make that franchise interesting.
I would even argue that the Reapers don't even *really* become this until ME3, because throughout 1 and 2 it's implied the Reapers, while a world-ending threat that will eventually become a massive problem are *there*, sure, they're supposedly so far in deep space that it'll take years for them to arrive. You could continue to have interesting stories in this universe just sort of using the Reapers as this looming but not immediate threat - that's basically what 2 did.
But then in ME3 they just sort of randomly appear as if they were more or less just a couple years away the whole time. The presence of the Reapers ruins the entire pace of ME3 from the beginning, all because they wanted a bombastic opening scene.
I mean, if 3 wasn't the final game in the series, that would be one thing. But you can't not have your main villains never show up in the story, especially since Sovereign talked with Shepard and Harbinger was trying to kill him in 2. They have names and personalities, they are not entirely out of context threats. If anything, 2 should have had the Reapers in the plot more directly.
I haven't played ME in a while but I remember it being pretty well set up that the Reapers are coming and they ain't gonna be taking long. Didn't one of the ME2 DLC hammer that point in a bit? (I could be totally wrong.)
Yup, the ME2 Arrival DLC has Shepherd look at a clock with less than 2 hours until the Reapers hit the Alpha Relay (and blowing it up only buys the galaxy a little more time)
I disliked how it ends with "Oh the Citadel is parked next to Earth", felt like the big action movies go on "worldwide threat" then have the big finale in New York (More Pacific Rim types instead, please)
“Ruined the pace/theme/tone because they wanted cool thing” is the story of ME2 and 3
there’s a lot else wrong with it, but the Age of Khonshu arc in the Avengers took a character that was at his best when he’s dealing with small threats that enable him to really shine as arguably the best written Marvel comics character… and GIVE HIM COSMIC POWERS AND SOMEHOW BEAT UP ALL OF THE AVENGERS. I hate Age of Khonshu for what it did to Moon Knight’s character, and applaud Jed MacKay for salvaging it and doing as well as he is.
The Metropolis (2001) and Steamboy (2004) anime movies. Metropolis has like 3-4 finale climax level events happen in the span of 40 minutes, Steamboy just didn't know where to end
Still love both movies, especially Metropolis
Dragon Ball Super.
The manga's headed in a direction I hate with the return of Frieza, an old pattern that I want to break and stay broken.
The villain has returned!! This time they're even STRONGER!! How will Goku win now?!?
You could argue this has been happening ever since Frieza returned as Mecha Frieza. But we've seen it with him, Cell, Buu multiple times, Goku Black, Moro, Gas, and we've returned to the beginning of the cycle with Frieza Black.
Have something interesting happen that doesn't involve power levels.
Power levels aren't "epic" anymore without the numbers. They're just meaningless. They had some loose idea of meaning until they went to Namek, now, they're pointless.
New Super Saiyan forms aren't "epic" either. There are too many.
Why do Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego work so well? They aren't "epic", they're ***different.***
Dragonball, once vegeta threatens to destroy the earth you really cant escalate from there, and so every subsequent arc tells you its escalated but you dont really care. The emotional difference between vegeta threatening to blow up earth and cell threatening to blow up the solar system is nothing.
Super weirdly fixed this for me, in that it doesnt end every fight with a big beam struggle that blows up the earth if it fails. I cant quite articulate why but zeno erasing universes felt like a bigger threat to me than buus implicit threat of destroying everything in the universe, despite both being the same thing on paper.
DBZ tells you that vegeta can blow up a planet, but then the next arc also implies that frieza can blow up a planet except they're more insistent with that implication. It retroactively feels like vegeta was just posturing when he said he was gonna blow up the earth.
Boy the monster hideout arc of the One Punch Man manga was 80 chapters longer than it needed to be with focus on spectacle over story telling to the point of defeating the point of Garou's arc in the source material.
I’d say ff15 from what I understand the best stuff is the bro trip stuff, I get that it’d be weird to do that that with a main line final fantasy but I kinda wish I was just bros on a bachelors trip
At this point, World of Warcraft has relied on so many world ending stakes that it’s fucking comical.
Burning Crusade had a Demon invasion threatening the world. Wrath had an undead invasion. Cataclysm had old god spookiness and a crazed dragon. Mists had Orc Hitler start the race war (with old good spookiness thrown in). Warlords had Orc Hitler go back to the past to again start a race war. Legion had Demons invading again. BfA had old god spookiness and faction war. And Shadowlands has Not!Thanos wanting to end the world because… “Reasons.”
I completely checked out around Legion and started playing FFXIV.
Tales of Vesperia was so much more interesting as fantasy politics than what it became.
THIS. The tension between the Empire and the Guilds was so interesting but then they threw it out for global warming.
Cape stories can suffer from it, especially in spinoffs.
Not every superhero story needs to involve the world/universe about to end.
Star Wars stuff often suffers from that. There are only so many times the entire galaxy can be threatened by the Empire/Sith before it starts to get either kind of boring or really stupid, e.g., Palps pulling a thousand Star Destroyers out of his ass in Rise of Shitfuck.
One of the things I’ve loved so much about Andor is that it really *isn’t* about anything the fate of the galaxy is resting on, it’s actually pretty small-scale in the grand scheme of things.
Edit: oh, god, the new All Quiet on the Western Front movie also had a gigantic problem with this. It’s really dumb.
I think Andor does an amazing job of being small scale in its conflicts, but large scale in its implications. It uses small conflicts that matter to localized groups to show you what the grander problem is without needing a doomsday device.
>!Although it does setup the Death Star at the end, the parts the prisoners made didn't actually matter to the conflict of them wanting to escape.!<
Spider-Man at times. I just prefer him staying in his own street-level battles against villains, and a grounded look into his human flaws and difficulties in life.
I never really dug things like multiverse stories especially since they're so overdone by now.
I liked Supernatural better when it was just two brothers in a car rather than two brothers fighting and dying to the weekly apocalypse of the rapturous ragnarok war between heaven, hell and everything in between.
I wonder to this day how the show would have panned out if not for the writer's strike that cut season 3 (I think it was 3) short and lead to the writer's introducing angels to get themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves into. That single change completely set the tone for rest of series constantly having the world at stake.
Doctor Who after tenant left suffers from this hard.
Doctor who is about the companion seeing the doctor through their eyes.
Doctor who with Moffatt onwards is just “the doctor is a god and is to be worshiped and is the smartest guy in the room.”
Only problem is the writers aren’t the smartest guys in the room and he suffers from the world around him being made of paper while he is made of steel. He might as well be a magician.
He also starts murdering people wholesale and participating in massive battles that he should be far away from.
The Moffat Doctor Who god complex was really cool in my opinion for the first couple of seasons... but then it just KEPT GOING. Like, the doctor went from a badass guy who should be feared by the average Mook, to a in-universe super threat, then a time bending Destroyer, and then the ultimate warlord of all galaxy and time (if he so wished), and it forgot the silly or deep sci-fi explorations in the process. The Moffat era has some fantastic twists and overarching elements, but when they keep happening and escalating it just becomes something bizarre, this whole Doctor Who vibe should have ended on a good note with the Day of The Doctor which salvaged a good part of it, but then it just continued
The Yakuza games, mainly 3,5,6. I love the series, don´t get me wrong, but the main storylines get pretty formulaic and the ones that don´t pull it off suffer more because of it. After 3 (2 if you go by release order) games of escalation from brawls to rampages to gunfights to fighting armies to shit blowing up, Yakuza 3 starts pretty chill. It is a welcome change of pace, and a nice way to scale things back a bit. But then at like the 40% mark it goes full yakuza mode, but with nowhere near the amount of setup these games need. Asspulls start happening left right and center, characters keep dying (or just fucking off), just so we can have an explosive finale. Five is a great game, but bloated as fuck, because we need to have more playable characters/storylines/side campaigns than 4. This leaves some characters with a bunch of meaningless screentime, while others have their stories condensed into the bare essentials. Also during my entire first playthrough my mind kept going "hope they tie all this together properly in the end." They kinda do...I guess? Yakuza six is kinda like three.
Yakuza 6 would have been SO good if it had just stayed smaller and more personal. It was one of my favorite game stories up until all the secret of Onomichi stuff really took off.
MCU Ms Marvel was at its best when it was small scale
Doctor Who under Moffet. Every episode was this big epic thing where The Doctor would make a grandiose speech about himself and threaten the bad guys. Only it never mattered. The Doctor would get everyone killed, except the companions of course. Then he would use the power of love, defeat the villain, then get in the TARDIS and repeat it the next week. The series finales did this 10 fold.
The worst part is that it felt like it was leading to something. That The Doctor's arrogance was getting people killed and that would lead down a darker path. Maybe even turning into the Valyard. But alas nothing.
Thankfully Chinball came along made The Doctor a girl who killed people and had a black man run around 1950's Alabama yelling at white people.
Warcraft suffers from this so badly. Their last villian was literally Satan and also retroactively the main bad guy behind every event going back to Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. The newest expansion, where the villian is *just* an angry dragon with maniacal laughter, is receiving super praise for just being a normal fucking adventure on Azeroth with lots of exploration and focus on small characters living in the world.
Please God. No more cosmic threats. No more Avengers drama between the League Of Superfriends we call our faction leaders. Just let me be a random asshole in a cool world.
Ff7 remake. One fraction of the original game did not need to be turned into a hyper anime disaster where youre fighting fate itself and god beings.
I still think Remake not actually being a remake and being a sequel and the Remake name being an artistic choice is the funniest thing that's ever happened in video games. What a swerve
Shit I disagree entirely. FF7R went so off-the-wall nuts and I was 100% along for the ride.
Mood. As someone whose first JRPG was FF7 and has it forever near and dear to her heart, I am ALL about shit going off the rails. I can't wait to see how nuts things can get.
Persona games would be tighter experiences without the world ending threats.
The true killer should be the final boss of 4, Masoyoshi Shido should be the final boss of 5
I feel the new semester in P5R has a great final boss. They´re more than just "bullshit evil entity that exist because humanity´s wish is self-destruction."
I would agree on Shido being the end of P5.
Feels like Mementos Depths and its twists weaken the narrative, and seem only there because P3 and 4 had grand ending threats.
Didn’t really like >!all of societies’ problems turning out to be caused by evil God!<