I dont think id really be comfortable. And if theyre saying cis men are not allowed but trans men are, i feel like they’re implicitly saying they think they can *tell* when someone is trans
I would not be comfortable and wouldn't go either. If the event is "everyone except cis men" then the intention is clearly "no one who is a man". I have no issue with an event excluding men, especially for people in need of a safe space due to past abuse. I take issue with the assumption that trans men can't fit the same category as cis men in this context. I am a man, I present and am perceived as a male within all aspects of my life. There is nothing in my external appearance that would separate me from cis men and I'd probably be excluded from the event. So in effect, that type of language really just means "all people who don't pass as men" and I personally would feel incredibly invalidated for instance if I showed up earlier in my transition when I still looked androgynous and was allowed in, only to see a trans friend of mine further in his transition be denied because he reads as male when I apparently don't.
I'm not saying that every trans man would have the same gripe as me, especially those that cant/don't want to medically transition and may struggle to be read as male in public. But it's needlessly alienating and misleading language to say no cis men when they aren't the only ones who fit the category you want to exclude
Yeah, same here. How exactly are they verifying who is/isn’t a cis man? That seems like a really uncomfortable gray area. Either men are or aren’t allowed. I don’t see the need for exceptions. I’d prefer to be treated the same as a cis man, as I am in every other aspect of my life.
Right, like I dont want to speak for other guys but heck, even thinking back to the early days of my transition when people would still misgender me in public at first glance... I'd still feel more validated being rejected from the event on the basis that I am a trans MAN than I would if they knew my gender identity and still chose to let me in simply because of my appearance.
I honestly think a lot of these spaces with such policies don't do it out of malicious intent. It feels like they (as with society at large) are just forgetting that trans men exist right alongside trans women. Like so much of the narrative around trans people in media is focused on just women so I could see how a well intentioned cis queer person could think such language is the most inclusive.
Ive gone to an event w a "no cis men" rule before, with an AMAB nonbinary person who doesnt shave their beard. They absolutely got harassed at the door and told they couldnt come in, both me and my ex had to vouch for them. My ex straight up told the person at the door that they were being transmisogynist.
So yea youre right i can say from experience.
I would be somewhat alright with them if they phrased it instead as "marginalized genders" or something bc that just makes more sense, but I've had so many people tell me I'm welcome at "women and nonbinaries" events and like no I'm obviously not, that always makes me feel terrible. But in general, there's really nothing that makes a cis man inherently more dangerous, they can also be queer and have trauma, I don't think it serves us to be further creating divisions between cis + trans queer ppl. Like just create spaces that are safe and supportive in general and don't let cis men be an issue in them?
Another thought I wanted to add on to this is how alienating it obviously is to early questioning trans fems and AMAB nonbinary ppl? Like it feels obvious who they're actually trying to support at events like that haha
There's also the weird and completely false assumption that women and trans femme people are automatically safer in regards to stuff like respecting consent, not being gatekeep-y about gender/appearance, sexism, etc.
If the concern is specific behaviors or people with specific views showing up and making the environment hostile, advertise a specific stance against those behaviors/views (or be explicitly pro/in-support of the things your intend to be supportive of) instead of sweeping sexist exclusions of genders or people based on appearances and unverifiable AGABs.
Yes! I agree with this. I want to go to these spaces because they often have resources people of all marginalized genders might need access to, but when they’re labeled as “women and non-binary” I know I’m about to be mistreated.
Any time someone separates trans and cis men like that, I'm outta there. There is nothing that inherently makes trans men safer or cis men more dangerous. Furthermore trans men can be shitty, and cis men could be angels. It's really an individual thing, not a "cis vs. trans" thing. We're all just men, in the end. And anyway, how would they even know a cis man isn't attending? Feels like a shitty way of saying they expect all trans men don't pass.
Right! Are they expecting us to carry around trans IDs or? If we’re judging appearances based solely on stereotypes trans men can look cis, cis men can looks trans, NB people could also look cis. This all around feels uncomfortable and unnecessary. Just say “no men”
yeah nah, if someone sees trans men as inherently different than cis men (in that way where cis men are inherently evil and dangerous or smth) then I'm just. Not comfortable there. Some of my best friends of all time are cis gay and bi men, or amab trans people I've known as men for years before they came out. Anyone who cuts out entire groups of the population like that w/o thinking isn't worth spending time with. Esp since they probably don't consider trans men as men, at least subconsciously.
If they're worried abt asshole cishet guys coming and ruining the vibe then I get it, but even then, if your event is obviously catered to trans and queer ppl, none of that type of person is gonna come anyways, and if they do, it'll be one or two guys awkwardly staying in their own corner the whole time. Not worth alienating queer cis men or the majority of trans people for.
i avoid anything that's aimed at only non-men. if they're like "well if you're a trans guy you can come" it's only bc they view me as a butch rather than a man. no fucking thanks.
This is unfortunately pretty common to see in German countries. We've got FLINTA\*, which stands for women, lesbians, intersex, nonbinary, trans, and agender. People always say nonbinary people are welcome, but I'm not very optimistic with the discrimination enbies that were AMAB already face, especially ones that are masculine presenting.
I also just don't see the point of only excluding cis gay men. I'm basically one. Feels like it has roots in radical feminism, where men are inherently majorily privileged by their sex. Being a gay man still is no cakewalk.
Queer spaces all good and fine, queerfeminist spaces sure, anything else is going to be messy as far as I'm concerned. In my experience it just tends to accumulate feminine presenting people, which is fine, but the advertising is shit.
I'm not even binary, and I wouldn't go. Because if there is one thing I am even less than a binary man, it's a woman - and no, not "woman light" either.
Also, I probably wouldn't get in in the first place - because I may not be binary, but I sure look "like a man".
I always thoroughly disliked this "all men are evil" policy. Even during my most "I've gotta be a woman and feminism is the solution to my problems!" phase. (I'm still a feminist. But nope, somehow it didn't make me a woman after all.)
This hurts my heart bc it’s blatant misandry in queer spaces disguised as progressivism for personal safety. And the thing is…. If your trans and pass looking any kind of “traditional masculine cis leaning” then these same people will kick you out too. It’s happened to me more than once. And even after saying I’m trans, it’s not enough… bc I “look” cis and that’s what they want to other. These same people are also exclusive and discriminating toward cis gay men too. The queerness is irrelevant when it’s the crime of existing, and/or looking cis that they want to ostracize.
Would never go to something explicitly not for cis men. Mainly because then everyone would automatically know I’m trans. Also because it comes off as considering trans men as less of men than cis guys. Gross.
Good lord yes. Lol and then also try to “save”
you through gaslighting. Literally told a cis woman I was dating how once I’m outed I’m seen as a woman. And she was like “no you’re not” and then sent me a video of a very passing trans man saying he’s never misgendered.
well. it depends. i think in general i feel iffy about that, especially considering its NOT specifically an LGBT event or an event for trans people…
i think my question is “what exactly is the goal if excluding cis men ?”
because trans men can be equally as shitty of people as cis men can. trans men can have toxic masculinity just like cis men can. trans men can be misogynists just like cis men can. so what is the real purpose of specifically excluding cis men but including trans men ?
when the stealth trans man walks in, are they going to kick him out ? are they going to request every guy to prove that hes trans to be allowed in ? how will they enforce this ?
what, specifically, is the goal of holding an event that (seemingly) is *only* for women, but allows trans men in ?
thats iffy and concerning at *best* and it blatantly declares that they (being the event organizers) dont really consider trans men to be actual men.
i mean, honestly, even an LGBT event that welcomed trans men but not cis men would make me feel weird, but its ESPECIALLY odd here, imo
Luckily, I’ve never came across this. And usually when I see shit like this… in my view it’s either because
1. It’s a place where people who have had trauma from cis men go for a safe space (Which is the acceptable one) and learn in the future that they can overcome this, and have better experiences with cis men later in life
2. To exclude cis men, just to spite it… double standard kinda shit, tryna demonize them (which is the one I explain below)
I personally don’t live for this. It’s not oppression against cis men (since oppression usually comes from history, and legislations) but it is prejudice against them in a way. Prejudice tho can only go so far when it’s towards something that has no oppression.
Also, I prefer to see men and hang out with men. I have mostly cis male and non binary afab friends. I’ve had some trauma from cis women and more femme presenting folks, but that doesn’t mean I would exclude them for that reason. I’m bi, but It’s just when it comes to dating and experiences I prefer men just because I’ve had better experiences with men. I get a bit anxious and iffy when a cis girl approaches me.. it’s tough for me I’m trying my best with it.
I'd have to look at the event since it really depends on a lot of factors. From the event you're referring to, I'd probably be very uncomfortable because I pass as a cis guy. I'd get a lot of weird looks and I'd have to explain myself a billion times to everyone I meet. It'd be more of a hassle than anything. And I really don't want random people knowing I'm trans unless I am specifically going to a mental health group or meeting up with trans people.
The only reason I can think of when a group says no to cis guys, is a trans masc/trans male specific mental health group where they deal with specific vulnerable dysphoric issues that would make it uncomfortable for a lot of people to be near a random cis guy. I would probably not say the whole truth with someone who's not a trans guy/trans masc near me. With meet ups, I wouldn't go to one if they only allowed trans guys since I'd want my cis gf or maybe cis guy friend to come with me. Though Id want to let my cis guy friend know that they might assume he's trans and to be aware he'd need to correct people a ton of times and tell them he's with me.
I wouldn’t be comfortable because I don’t like being differentiated like that. If someone accepts trans men to an event they should also accept cis men, same as if they accept trans women they should also accept cis women.
I wouldn't feel comfortable. I've seen events advertised as being explicitly for women and nonbinary people, and thought oh awesome, good for them, but then there was a disclaimed under the "No men" part that trans men *were* allowed. And I had a lot of feelings about that one because no men should include *all men*. There are very many trans guys out there that can pass completely as a cis man, and if they showed up to that event, it would completely negate the purpose of having it be a safe space for people without men being there. If someone was attending because they were under the impression that there wouldn't be men there since they've had previous bad experience with men and believed it to be a safe space, those people would absolutely feel violated seeing someone who is very obviously male being there.
If an event is open to all queer people, it should say that, without having a no men policy to begin with. And if an event is open just to women and nonbinary people, I don't think it should be open to trans men at all
Depends entirely upon who is being centered at the event. Is it trans people? Then hell yes. Is it cis women? Fuck no. Any event that is centering cis people is inherently unsafe for trans people on one level or another.
I've been told many times before and since transitioning that I'm basically a cis dude. Chasers who expect me to be effeminate end up being very disappointed. So no, definitely not a space for me.
Anything that excludes anyone, has unhinged vibes. We should be moving away from segregation as a society. (Obviously, excluding hateful bigots from certain events is nessessary)
No. Not for myself. But because gay and bi cis men ARE my allies in queerness and no one has actually stood up and advocated for me the way cis gay men have. They are also queer and they deserve to belong in queer spaces. It makes no sense to push them out when we need to stand United.
If it was a trans only event, i wouldnt mind. But being exclusively restricting to cis men seems like trouble. How would you enforce this? How would you even know whos cis and who isnt? Would non passing trans women (or nb amab ppl) be seen as "cis" and not let in? It brings much more trouble than needed.
It depends. I'd be fine with an event that doesn't permit cis people, het people, or cishet people, but one that explicitly excludes cis men and ISN'T a trans specific event feels a bit weird.
I understand the appeal. We have shared experiences and all that. Just personally I wouldn’t go because for some reason the idea just triggers dysphoria for me.
I can definitely relate to this post and your apprehension here.
Sometimes, my well meaning cis girl friends will include me in their girl-only things, with a loving ‘oh you don’t count!’ as “reassurance”. While I am genuinely honored my friends feel I am a safe guy to be around, I can’t help but feel like I’m not exactly seen as a guy to them.
There are a few really good trans masc events in Melbourne that I’ve been too! Everyone saying that by excluding cis men, it is invalidating trans men I have to disagree. It’s so great to be surrounded by trans people, especially other trans mascs. I honestly felt so seen
Only way I'd be comfortable is if a friend asked me there as their safety net. Like, 'I know you aren't a girl, but I don't have any girls I know to go with me and I don't want to go alone' type of thing. Anything less than that would result in me asking why they even invited me in the first place.
It's up to other people, but I'm sort of over the "no cisdudes allowed" rule in general. It reeks of overcompensation, and frankly, constantly singling out cismen has done fuckall to help fix the gender discourse. They're a major part of the problem, but they're not even *close* to the only problem. If I'm going to an event that bans cismen, I'd rather go to an event that is trans only.
This is kind of awkward to say, but I also feel less comfortable around ciswomen than cismen- transphobic cismen are more likely to be overtly transphobic, but that also means I know who to avoid pretty quickly. Transphobic ciswomen (that aren't TERFs- they're aggressively overt) take that death by microaggression approach that makes me feel like I'm going to look like an oversensitive ass if I say something, but I might end up in a *Get Out* moment any second now. I really wish that was also allowed in some of this dialogue.
Take with a grain of salt, I'm nonbinary transmasculine. First and foremost if it bothers you I assure you its not that weird. Excluding men and then inviting you can leave the implication of emasculating and misgendering you. Do understand you've already made a decision just want to give assurance its really not that weird to be bothered by it.
As for me, if I were to go to this event. They'd also have to disclude cis women. I actually really dig a trans only hang out. Where it falls flat though is this idea of discluding cis men which will just lead to biases and I'm willing to bet a place like that wouldn't be safe for masc presenting folks in general.
I would definitely not be comfortable and obviously they don’t truly see trans men as men. Also people need to quit assuming someone will act a certain way based on something they can’t control. It’s prejudice period.
i don’t think it’s a “you’re one of the good ones” mindset, i think they’re creating a space for marginalized genders, and trans guys are marginalized. however, i don’t know how they’d enforce that. best case they don’t, and just expect everyone’s telling the truth. in which case i don’t see it as a problem.
On the one hand I’m opposed to this kind of exclusion. On the other hand, have you ever been to a LGBT event with cis queer men? They talk. A lot. Speakers tend to be mostly cis men and then they fill up the gaps with “the others”. So, I get both of the pro and anti excluding cis men opinions.
I don’t appreciate events that allow everyone but cis guys because it means they don’t see trans men as men. If they really wanted to have events for GNC people, they’d ban cis women as well. But they don’t because the goal is to just ban men.
Often there’s a lot of misandry in spaces that do this and trans men who present and live their lives in a more masculine way - because that is what feels right - are not treated particularly well either.
I would not go. I feel like I would be wearing a giant sign that says “I’m trans” and/ or I would be misgendered bc ppl would think I’m a masculine woman. Either way, super uncomfortable.
I live in a german-speaking country and we have something called FLINTA*, which is an acronym for women, lesbians, intersex people, non-binary people, trans people and agender people.
I've been to gatherings, parties and clubs like that and they were some of the best nights out of my life! The atmosphere was always very relaxed, the music great and you could just hit up anyone and start a friendly conversation.
So, yeah I'd go if you have the chance and feel comfortable :)
I understand the apprehension, because it does seem like a slippery slope towards the idea that trans men are just "women-lite" or "masculine enbys" or something along those lines. But my personal experience with hangouts like that has been largely positive. I was always treated with respect and I made some great friends. I obviously can't guarantee that, that'll be your experience as well, but it's worth a shot I think.
The glaring difference between events that exclude cis men and events that exclude straight people (like gay bars/clubs) have been the cis gay men. While they obviously aren't a monolith it has to be said that some of the most disrespectful and transphobic people I have met in queer spaces have been cis gay men.
I have no idea why this seems to be a trend, but cis lesbians for example have never treated me as shitty as cis gay men. It may be because I'm bisexual myself and they feel like I'm intruding in the community? Not sure to be honest, but it's disheartening.
As a nonbinary person, I wouldn’t feel comfortable going knowing masculine AMAB nonbinary people would instantly be excluded purely on appearance alone :(
I would definitely not go because to me cis & trans men are men
Anyone who hosts such events does not see trans men as men and that's transphobic (hate to break it to people who thought otherwise /nm)
Besides, many of my close friends are cis guys (queer but cis) and I'd love to go to events with them and have fun together
They way i see it is that everyone needs their space. Especially our community is split into so many pieces that it will be almost impossible to include everyone and meet everyones safe needs (except for pride parades). Ever tried hosting a cis gay and gay ftm event? I did (working in the community since 2018) and it did not end well.
I see no issue with closed groups, as long as there are still events where all the people can go to and meet and can decide on their own if it would be safe to expand their bubble.
Especially regarding cis dudes, you will never know if someone attending an event who isn't a cis dude, has had bad encounters with them (e.g. abuse, r-word etc.). That would be the safe space for those people. :-)
I dont think id really be comfortable. And if theyre saying cis men are not allowed but trans men are, i feel like they’re implicitly saying they think they can *tell* when someone is trans
I would not be comfortable and wouldn't go either. If the event is "everyone except cis men" then the intention is clearly "no one who is a man". I have no issue with an event excluding men, especially for people in need of a safe space due to past abuse. I take issue with the assumption that trans men can't fit the same category as cis men in this context. I am a man, I present and am perceived as a male within all aspects of my life. There is nothing in my external appearance that would separate me from cis men and I'd probably be excluded from the event. So in effect, that type of language really just means "all people who don't pass as men" and I personally would feel incredibly invalidated for instance if I showed up earlier in my transition when I still looked androgynous and was allowed in, only to see a trans friend of mine further in his transition be denied because he reads as male when I apparently don't. I'm not saying that every trans man would have the same gripe as me, especially those that cant/don't want to medically transition and may struggle to be read as male in public. But it's needlessly alienating and misleading language to say no cis men when they aren't the only ones who fit the category you want to exclude
Yeah, same here. How exactly are they verifying who is/isn’t a cis man? That seems like a really uncomfortable gray area. Either men are or aren’t allowed. I don’t see the need for exceptions. I’d prefer to be treated the same as a cis man, as I am in every other aspect of my life.
Right, like I dont want to speak for other guys but heck, even thinking back to the early days of my transition when people would still misgender me in public at first glance... I'd still feel more validated being rejected from the event on the basis that I am a trans MAN than I would if they knew my gender identity and still chose to let me in simply because of my appearance. I honestly think a lot of these spaces with such policies don't do it out of malicious intent. It feels like they (as with society at large) are just forgetting that trans men exist right alongside trans women. Like so much of the narrative around trans people in media is focused on just women so I could see how a well intentioned cis queer person could think such language is the most inclusive.
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Ive gone to an event w a "no cis men" rule before, with an AMAB nonbinary person who doesnt shave their beard. They absolutely got harassed at the door and told they couldnt come in, both me and my ex had to vouch for them. My ex straight up told the person at the door that they were being transmisogynist. So yea youre right i can say from experience.
Yeah, if my gf can't come because of that, I'm not going. They sound low-key TERFy and high key gender essentialist.
Heavy on “they see us as women” because they really *REALLY* do
I would be somewhat alright with them if they phrased it instead as "marginalized genders" or something bc that just makes more sense, but I've had so many people tell me I'm welcome at "women and nonbinaries" events and like no I'm obviously not, that always makes me feel terrible. But in general, there's really nothing that makes a cis man inherently more dangerous, they can also be queer and have trauma, I don't think it serves us to be further creating divisions between cis + trans queer ppl. Like just create spaces that are safe and supportive in general and don't let cis men be an issue in them?
Another thought I wanted to add on to this is how alienating it obviously is to early questioning trans fems and AMAB nonbinary ppl? Like it feels obvious who they're actually trying to support at events like that haha
There's also the weird and completely false assumption that women and trans femme people are automatically safer in regards to stuff like respecting consent, not being gatekeep-y about gender/appearance, sexism, etc. If the concern is specific behaviors or people with specific views showing up and making the environment hostile, advertise a specific stance against those behaviors/views (or be explicitly pro/in-support of the things your intend to be supportive of) instead of sweeping sexist exclusions of genders or people based on appearances and unverifiable AGABs.
Yes! I agree with this. I want to go to these spaces because they often have resources people of all marginalized genders might need access to, but when they’re labeled as “women and non-binary” I know I’m about to be mistreated.
Any time someone separates trans and cis men like that, I'm outta there. There is nothing that inherently makes trans men safer or cis men more dangerous. Furthermore trans men can be shitty, and cis men could be angels. It's really an individual thing, not a "cis vs. trans" thing. We're all just men, in the end. And anyway, how would they even know a cis man isn't attending? Feels like a shitty way of saying they expect all trans men don't pass.
Right! Are they expecting us to carry around trans IDs or? If we’re judging appearances based solely on stereotypes trans men can look cis, cis men can looks trans, NB people could also look cis. This all around feels uncomfortable and unnecessary. Just say “no men”
yeah nah, if someone sees trans men as inherently different than cis men (in that way where cis men are inherently evil and dangerous or smth) then I'm just. Not comfortable there. Some of my best friends of all time are cis gay and bi men, or amab trans people I've known as men for years before they came out. Anyone who cuts out entire groups of the population like that w/o thinking isn't worth spending time with. Esp since they probably don't consider trans men as men, at least subconsciously. If they're worried abt asshole cishet guys coming and ruining the vibe then I get it, but even then, if your event is obviously catered to trans and queer ppl, none of that type of person is gonna come anyways, and if they do, it'll be one or two guys awkwardly staying in their own corner the whole time. Not worth alienating queer cis men or the majority of trans people for.
i avoid anything that's aimed at only non-men. if they're like "well if you're a trans guy you can come" it's only bc they view me as a butch rather than a man. no fucking thanks.
This is unfortunately pretty common to see in German countries. We've got FLINTA\*, which stands for women, lesbians, intersex, nonbinary, trans, and agender. People always say nonbinary people are welcome, but I'm not very optimistic with the discrimination enbies that were AMAB already face, especially ones that are masculine presenting. I also just don't see the point of only excluding cis gay men. I'm basically one. Feels like it has roots in radical feminism, where men are inherently majorily privileged by their sex. Being a gay man still is no cakewalk. Queer spaces all good and fine, queerfeminist spaces sure, anything else is going to be messy as far as I'm concerned. In my experience it just tends to accumulate feminine presenting people, which is fine, but the advertising is shit.
Hey you hit a note about that perspectief about FLINTA. I tried researching this nuance on the topic, is it okay if I PM you some questions about it?
Sure, but I'm not sure how much help I can be on that.
I'm not even binary, and I wouldn't go. Because if there is one thing I am even less than a binary man, it's a woman - and no, not "woman light" either. Also, I probably wouldn't get in in the first place - because I may not be binary, but I sure look "like a man". I always thoroughly disliked this "all men are evil" policy. Even during my most "I've gotta be a woman and feminism is the solution to my problems!" phase. (I'm still a feminist. But nope, somehow it didn't make me a woman after all.)
Yes! I’m learning that “all men are evil” mentality usually is just loosely covering racism and/or transphobia.
This hurts my heart bc it’s blatant misandry in queer spaces disguised as progressivism for personal safety. And the thing is…. If your trans and pass looking any kind of “traditional masculine cis leaning” then these same people will kick you out too. It’s happened to me more than once. And even after saying I’m trans, it’s not enough… bc I “look” cis and that’s what they want to other. These same people are also exclusive and discriminating toward cis gay men too. The queerness is irrelevant when it’s the crime of existing, and/or looking cis that they want to ostracize.
Would never go to something explicitly not for cis men. Mainly because then everyone would automatically know I’m trans. Also because it comes off as considering trans men as less of men than cis guys. Gross.
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Yes! Cis women have absolutely no awareness that they are often equally unsafe to trans people.
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Uhg all the time. And then they end up getting overly close and doing more damage.
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Good lord yes. Lol and then also try to “save” you through gaslighting. Literally told a cis woman I was dating how once I’m outed I’m seen as a woman. And she was like “no you’re not” and then sent me a video of a very passing trans man saying he’s never misgendered.
I don’t think i’d be comfortable tbh! I probably wouldn’t be seen as a man at all
well. it depends. i think in general i feel iffy about that, especially considering its NOT specifically an LGBT event or an event for trans people… i think my question is “what exactly is the goal if excluding cis men ?” because trans men can be equally as shitty of people as cis men can. trans men can have toxic masculinity just like cis men can. trans men can be misogynists just like cis men can. so what is the real purpose of specifically excluding cis men but including trans men ? when the stealth trans man walks in, are they going to kick him out ? are they going to request every guy to prove that hes trans to be allowed in ? how will they enforce this ? what, specifically, is the goal of holding an event that (seemingly) is *only* for women, but allows trans men in ? thats iffy and concerning at *best* and it blatantly declares that they (being the event organizers) dont really consider trans men to be actual men. i mean, honestly, even an LGBT event that welcomed trans men but not cis men would make me feel weird, but its ESPECIALLY odd here, imo
Luckily, I’ve never came across this. And usually when I see shit like this… in my view it’s either because 1. It’s a place where people who have had trauma from cis men go for a safe space (Which is the acceptable one) and learn in the future that they can overcome this, and have better experiences with cis men later in life 2. To exclude cis men, just to spite it… double standard kinda shit, tryna demonize them (which is the one I explain below) I personally don’t live for this. It’s not oppression against cis men (since oppression usually comes from history, and legislations) but it is prejudice against them in a way. Prejudice tho can only go so far when it’s towards something that has no oppression. Also, I prefer to see men and hang out with men. I have mostly cis male and non binary afab friends. I’ve had some trauma from cis women and more femme presenting folks, but that doesn’t mean I would exclude them for that reason. I’m bi, but It’s just when it comes to dating and experiences I prefer men just because I’ve had better experiences with men. I get a bit anxious and iffy when a cis girl approaches me.. it’s tough for me I’m trying my best with it.
I'd have to look at the event since it really depends on a lot of factors. From the event you're referring to, I'd probably be very uncomfortable because I pass as a cis guy. I'd get a lot of weird looks and I'd have to explain myself a billion times to everyone I meet. It'd be more of a hassle than anything. And I really don't want random people knowing I'm trans unless I am specifically going to a mental health group or meeting up with trans people. The only reason I can think of when a group says no to cis guys, is a trans masc/trans male specific mental health group where they deal with specific vulnerable dysphoric issues that would make it uncomfortable for a lot of people to be near a random cis guy. I would probably not say the whole truth with someone who's not a trans guy/trans masc near me. With meet ups, I wouldn't go to one if they only allowed trans guys since I'd want my cis gf or maybe cis guy friend to come with me. Though Id want to let my cis guy friend know that they might assume he's trans and to be aware he'd need to correct people a ton of times and tell them he's with me.
I wouldn’t be comfortable because I don’t like being differentiated like that. If someone accepts trans men to an event they should also accept cis men, same as if they accept trans women they should also accept cis women.
I wouldn't feel comfortable. I've seen events advertised as being explicitly for women and nonbinary people, and thought oh awesome, good for them, but then there was a disclaimed under the "No men" part that trans men *were* allowed. And I had a lot of feelings about that one because no men should include *all men*. There are very many trans guys out there that can pass completely as a cis man, and if they showed up to that event, it would completely negate the purpose of having it be a safe space for people without men being there. If someone was attending because they were under the impression that there wouldn't be men there since they've had previous bad experience with men and believed it to be a safe space, those people would absolutely feel violated seeing someone who is very obviously male being there. If an event is open to all queer people, it should say that, without having a no men policy to begin with. And if an event is open just to women and nonbinary people, I don't think it should be open to trans men at all
Depends entirely upon who is being centered at the event. Is it trans people? Then hell yes. Is it cis women? Fuck no. Any event that is centering cis people is inherently unsafe for trans people on one level or another.
I've been told many times before and since transitioning that I'm basically a cis dude. Chasers who expect me to be effeminate end up being very disappointed. So no, definitely not a space for me.
Anything that excludes anyone, has unhinged vibes. We should be moving away from segregation as a society. (Obviously, excluding hateful bigots from certain events is nessessary)
i hate the seperation of cis and trans men for stuff like this. like what is it supposed to say? none of the options are good
Lame as fuck. Some of the most accepting and supportive people I've ever met are cis guys. Segregation isn't cool. Don't care who it's against.
No. Not for myself. But because gay and bi cis men ARE my allies in queerness and no one has actually stood up and advocated for me the way cis gay men have. They are also queer and they deserve to belong in queer spaces. It makes no sense to push them out when we need to stand United.
If it was a trans only event, i wouldnt mind. But being exclusively restricting to cis men seems like trouble. How would you enforce this? How would you even know whos cis and who isnt? Would non passing trans women (or nb amab ppl) be seen as "cis" and not let in? It brings much more trouble than needed.
Personally no. I'm a man and I want to be treated like a man
i would go to an only trans men event, which is what i thought from the title lol. but not a "everyone but cis men" event
It depends. I'd be fine with an event that doesn't permit cis people, het people, or cishet people, but one that explicitly excludes cis men and ISN'T a trans specific event feels a bit weird.
I understand the appeal. We have shared experiences and all that. Just personally I wouldn’t go because for some reason the idea just triggers dysphoria for me.
I can definitely relate to this post and your apprehension here. Sometimes, my well meaning cis girl friends will include me in their girl-only things, with a loving ‘oh you don’t count!’ as “reassurance”. While I am genuinely honored my friends feel I am a safe guy to be around, I can’t help but feel like I’m not exactly seen as a guy to them.
There are a few really good trans masc events in Melbourne that I’ve been too! Everyone saying that by excluding cis men, it is invalidating trans men I have to disagree. It’s so great to be surrounded by trans people, especially other trans mascs. I honestly felt so seen
Only way I'd be comfortable is if a friend asked me there as their safety net. Like, 'I know you aren't a girl, but I don't have any girls I know to go with me and I don't want to go alone' type of thing. Anything less than that would result in me asking why they even invited me in the first place.
It's up to other people, but I'm sort of over the "no cisdudes allowed" rule in general. It reeks of overcompensation, and frankly, constantly singling out cismen has done fuckall to help fix the gender discourse. They're a major part of the problem, but they're not even *close* to the only problem. If I'm going to an event that bans cismen, I'd rather go to an event that is trans only. This is kind of awkward to say, but I also feel less comfortable around ciswomen than cismen- transphobic cismen are more likely to be overtly transphobic, but that also means I know who to avoid pretty quickly. Transphobic ciswomen (that aren't TERFs- they're aggressively overt) take that death by microaggression approach that makes me feel like I'm going to look like an oversensitive ass if I say something, but I might end up in a *Get Out* moment any second now. I really wish that was also allowed in some of this dialogue.
Earlier in my transition, I often got responses from cis women like they were mad at me because I was “quitting the team” so I get this.
Take with a grain of salt, I'm nonbinary transmasculine. First and foremost if it bothers you I assure you its not that weird. Excluding men and then inviting you can leave the implication of emasculating and misgendering you. Do understand you've already made a decision just want to give assurance its really not that weird to be bothered by it. As for me, if I were to go to this event. They'd also have to disclude cis women. I actually really dig a trans only hang out. Where it falls flat though is this idea of discluding cis men which will just lead to biases and I'm willing to bet a place like that wouldn't be safe for masc presenting folks in general.
That's just and purely sexist. I definitely would not to go there.
Only if cis women can't go either. Gotta have my safe space from people who remind me of my abusers and oppressors after all :^]
I would definitely not be comfortable and obviously they don’t truly see trans men as men. Also people need to quit assuming someone will act a certain way based on something they can’t control. It’s prejudice period.
i don’t think it’s a “you’re one of the good ones” mindset, i think they’re creating a space for marginalized genders, and trans guys are marginalized. however, i don’t know how they’d enforce that. best case they don’t, and just expect everyone’s telling the truth. in which case i don’t see it as a problem.
yeahhh seperating trans and cis men is just arbitrary and also a bit demeaning honestly
On the one hand I’m opposed to this kind of exclusion. On the other hand, have you ever been to a LGBT event with cis queer men? They talk. A lot. Speakers tend to be mostly cis men and then they fill up the gaps with “the others”. So, I get both of the pro and anti excluding cis men opinions.
I don’t appreciate events that allow everyone but cis guys because it means they don’t see trans men as men. If they really wanted to have events for GNC people, they’d ban cis women as well. But they don’t because the goal is to just ban men. Often there’s a lot of misandry in spaces that do this and trans men who present and live their lives in a more masculine way - because that is what feels right - are not treated particularly well either.
My opinion is that cis women are just as bad as cis men. As long as you’re cis 🤷♂️
I would not go. I feel like I would be wearing a giant sign that says “I’m trans” and/ or I would be misgendered bc ppl would think I’m a masculine woman. Either way, super uncomfortable.
I live in a german-speaking country and we have something called FLINTA*, which is an acronym for women, lesbians, intersex people, non-binary people, trans people and agender people. I've been to gatherings, parties and clubs like that and they were some of the best nights out of my life! The atmosphere was always very relaxed, the music great and you could just hit up anyone and start a friendly conversation. So, yeah I'd go if you have the chance and feel comfortable :)
I understand the apprehension, because it does seem like a slippery slope towards the idea that trans men are just "women-lite" or "masculine enbys" or something along those lines. But my personal experience with hangouts like that has been largely positive. I was always treated with respect and I made some great friends. I obviously can't guarantee that, that'll be your experience as well, but it's worth a shot I think. The glaring difference between events that exclude cis men and events that exclude straight people (like gay bars/clubs) have been the cis gay men. While they obviously aren't a monolith it has to be said that some of the most disrespectful and transphobic people I have met in queer spaces have been cis gay men. I have no idea why this seems to be a trend, but cis lesbians for example have never treated me as shitty as cis gay men. It may be because I'm bisexual myself and they feel like I'm intruding in the community? Not sure to be honest, but it's disheartening.
Would much prefer it be no cis people at all. I go on lex but I never talk to any of the cis women there. Don’t think I would go to an irl event
I probably wouldn't be super comfortable. If it was no straight cis men I would like that more.
As a nonbinary person, I wouldn’t feel comfortable going knowing masculine AMAB nonbinary people would instantly be excluded purely on appearance alone :(
I would definitely not go because to me cis & trans men are men Anyone who hosts such events does not see trans men as men and that's transphobic (hate to break it to people who thought otherwise /nm) Besides, many of my close friends are cis guys (queer but cis) and I'd love to go to events with them and have fun together
They way i see it is that everyone needs their space. Especially our community is split into so many pieces that it will be almost impossible to include everyone and meet everyones safe needs (except for pride parades). Ever tried hosting a cis gay and gay ftm event? I did (working in the community since 2018) and it did not end well. I see no issue with closed groups, as long as there are still events where all the people can go to and meet and can decide on their own if it would be safe to expand their bubble. Especially regarding cis dudes, you will never know if someone attending an event who isn't a cis dude, has had bad encounters with them (e.g. abuse, r-word etc.). That would be the safe space for those people. :-)
I’m fine with it and would attend. I’m trans masc non-binary though